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	<title>Comments on: Disinformation Works</title>
	<atom:link href="http://cosmicvariance.com/2008/01/20/disinformation-works/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://cosmicvariance.com/2008/01/20/disinformation-works/</link>
	<description>Random samplings from a universe of ideas</description>
	<pubDate>Fri, 25 Jul 2008 14:30:22 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>By: Chris W.</title>
		<link>http://cosmicvariance.com/2008/01/20/disinformation-works/#comment-308886</link>
		<dc:creator>Chris W.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 23 Jan 2008 02:58:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cosmicvariance.com/2008/01/20/disinformation-works/#comment-308886</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;I run all of my campaigns as if people were watching television with the sound turned down.
   --- Karl Rove&lt;/blockquote&gt;

See this &lt;a href="http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&#38;q=Rove+watching+television+sound+turned+down" rel="nofollow"&gt;Google search&lt;/a&gt;.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>I run all of my campaigns as if people were watching television with the sound turned down.<br />
   &#8212; Karl Rove</p></blockquote>
<p>See this <a href="http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&amp;q=Rove+watching+television+sound+turned+down" rel="nofollow">Google search</a>.</p>
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		<title>By: Lawrence B. Crowell</title>
		<link>http://cosmicvariance.com/2008/01/20/disinformation-works/#comment-308859</link>
		<dc:creator>Lawrence B. Crowell</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 23 Jan 2008 01:24:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cosmicvariance.com/2008/01/20/disinformation-works/#comment-308859</guid>
		<description>I love the Lakoff quote.  The truest thing I've read all day.

What is important is to keep the federal government from promoting mendacities.  There have been some pressure on this front with global warming, HIV &#38; condoms, and the "abstinence only" education.  The media is of course corporate or "private," even if a corporation is about as private as a medieval fiefdom, and putting pressure on them to stop broadcasting falsehoods or nonsense is a difficult thicket.  

Lawrence B. Crowell</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I love the Lakoff quote.  The truest thing I&#8217;ve read all day.</p>
<p>What is important is to keep the federal government from promoting mendacities.  There have been some pressure on this front with global warming, HIV &amp; condoms, and the &#8220;abstinence only&#8221; education.  The media is of course corporate or &#8220;private,&#8221; even if a corporation is about as private as a medieval fiefdom, and putting pressure on them to stop broadcasting falsehoods or nonsense is a difficult thicket.  </p>
<p>Lawrence B. Crowell</p>
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		<title>By: thm</title>
		<link>http://cosmicvariance.com/2008/01/20/disinformation-works/#comment-308844</link>
		<dc:creator>thm</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 22 Jan 2008 19:26:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cosmicvariance.com/2008/01/20/disinformation-works/#comment-308844</guid>
		<description>Whether or not you agree with his theory of metaphor, I think the most important thing that George Lakoff brought to the progressive table is this:
the notion that people will give up irrational beliefs when presented with solid evidence is itself an irrational belief, unsupported by the evidence.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Whether or not you agree with his theory of metaphor, I think the most important thing that George Lakoff brought to the progressive table is this:<br />
the notion that people will give up irrational beliefs when presented with solid evidence is itself an irrational belief, unsupported by the evidence.</p>
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		<title>By: B</title>
		<link>http://cosmicvariance.com/2008/01/20/disinformation-works/#comment-308780</link>
		<dc:creator>B</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 21 Jan 2008 15:40:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cosmicvariance.com/2008/01/20/disinformation-works/#comment-308780</guid>
		<description>Regarding disinformation and the media, don't underestimate the increasing importance of information found (or unfound) on the internet. See e.g. my recent post &lt;a href="http://backreaction.blogspot.com/2008/01/spirits-that-we-called.html" rel="nofollow"&gt;The Spirits that we Called&lt;/a&gt; about the influence of search engines on our information filtering. (And for my pessimism about where we go if we don't manage to organize availability and communication of information in a useful way, see &lt;a href="http://backreaction.blogspot.com/2008/01/on-edge.html" rel="nofollow"&gt;On the Edge&lt;/a&gt;.)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Regarding disinformation and the media, don&#8217;t underestimate the increasing importance of information found (or unfound) on the internet. See e.g. my recent post <a href="http://backreaction.blogspot.com/2008/01/spirits-that-we-called.html" rel="nofollow">The Spirits that we Called</a> about the influence of search engines on our information filtering. (And for my pessimism about where we go if we don&#8217;t manage to organize availability and communication of information in a useful way, see <a href="http://backreaction.blogspot.com/2008/01/on-edge.html" rel="nofollow">On the Edge</a>.)</p>
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		<title>By: Lawrence B. Crowell</title>
		<link>http://cosmicvariance.com/2008/01/20/disinformation-works/#comment-308752</link>
		<dc:creator>Lawrence B. Crowell</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 21 Jan 2008 01:51:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cosmicvariance.com/2008/01/20/disinformation-works/#comment-308752</guid>
		<description>I agree that the media is generally the problem.  The evolution vs Creationism (or ID) debate is case in point.  The media presents this on their puerile news broadcasts as if there is some real debate or issue.  Of course there is no such thing, for anyone who tracks AAAS or NAS can see.  What issue over this might exist is with education policy.  The Discovery Institute is promoting a "teach the controversy" agenda (a new form of their "wedge") as a way of keeping creationist persiflage alive and well.

A similar issue of course exists with global warming, or what might be better called global climate perturbation.  This of course gets closer to the heart of the problem.  Huge financial interests have come into play to attempt to blunt real coverage of this issue, and the usual suspects should come to mind the oil companies, auto industries, Peabody Coal and so forth.  Then all you have to do is look at the corporate ownership of the main media outlets, the advertizing revenue link and it then becomes no surprise that we have this problem.  It gets particularly bad with FOX, where still nearly 50% of viewers think Iraq was behind 9/11 or that there were WMD in Iraq and the rest.  In this decade there has been a particularly septic convergence of money, corporate, political and religious interests --- and our media has been particularly malodorous as it has obsequeously followed the money trail.

Politicians and political parties need to be changed with some regularity, just like babies need diaper changes --- and for much the same reasons.  Politics and power seems to attract bad people, or psychopaths, and it is up to us to keep the pot stirred so that these types don't put permanent roots in the political soil. 

Lawrence B. Crowell</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I agree that the media is generally the problem.  The evolution vs Creationism (or ID) debate is case in point.  The media presents this on their puerile news broadcasts as if there is some real debate or issue.  Of course there is no such thing, for anyone who tracks AAAS or NAS can see.  What issue over this might exist is with education policy.  The Discovery Institute is promoting a &#8220;teach the controversy&#8221; agenda (a new form of their &#8220;wedge&#8221;) as a way of keeping creationist persiflage alive and well.</p>
<p>A similar issue of course exists with global warming, or what might be better called global climate perturbation.  This of course gets closer to the heart of the problem.  Huge financial interests have come into play to attempt to blunt real coverage of this issue, and the usual suspects should come to mind the oil companies, auto industries, Peabody Coal and so forth.  Then all you have to do is look at the corporate ownership of the main media outlets, the advertizing revenue link and it then becomes no surprise that we have this problem.  It gets particularly bad with FOX, where still nearly 50% of viewers think Iraq was behind 9/11 or that there were WMD in Iraq and the rest.  In this decade there has been a particularly septic convergence of money, corporate, political and religious interests &#8212; and our media has been particularly malodorous as it has obsequeously followed the money trail.</p>
<p>Politicians and political parties need to be changed with some regularity, just like babies need diaper changes &#8212; and for much the same reasons.  Politics and power seems to attract bad people, or psychopaths, and it is up to us to keep the pot stirred so that these types don&#8217;t put permanent roots in the political soil. </p>
<p>Lawrence B. Crowell</p>
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		<title>By: Cold, Cold Weather, Hot Politics &#171; blueollie</title>
		<link>http://cosmicvariance.com/2008/01/20/disinformation-works/#comment-308748</link>
		<dc:creator>Cold, Cold Weather, Hot Politics &#171; blueollie</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 21 Jan 2008 00:47:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cosmicvariance.com/2008/01/20/disinformation-works/#comment-308748</guid>
		<description>[...] a nice blog post about how many &#8220;general undecided voters&#8221; make up their minds. Often it is on disinformation.  I remember back in the ’90’s talking to a woman who was between jobs at the time, and [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] a nice blog post about how many &#8220;general undecided voters&#8221; make up their minds. Often it is on disinformation.  I remember back in the ’90’s talking to a woman who was between jobs at the time, and [...]</p>
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		<title>By: TomR</title>
		<link>http://cosmicvariance.com/2008/01/20/disinformation-works/#comment-308747</link>
		<dc:creator>TomR</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 21 Jan 2008 00:16:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cosmicvariance.com/2008/01/20/disinformation-works/#comment-308747</guid>
		<description>Psuedolethe--pretty sure there's good evidence that voters tend to agree with Democrats on issues but vote for Republican candidates. I submit that this constitutes the hard data of systemic asymmetry you're looking for.

I've worked a few campaigns, and usually hear this is usually explained as either "issues aren't what really matter--people vote on personal attributes, and later back-form their issue justifications" or "Republicans have better funded, better run campaigns."</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Psuedolethe&#8211;pretty sure there&#8217;s good evidence that voters tend to agree with Democrats on issues but vote for Republican candidates. I submit that this constitutes the hard data of systemic asymmetry you&#8217;re looking for.</p>
<p>I&#8217;ve worked a few campaigns, and usually hear this is usually explained as either &#8220;issues aren&#8217;t what really matter&#8211;people vote on personal attributes, and later back-form their issue justifications&#8221; or &#8220;Republicans have better funded, better run campaigns.&#8221;</p>
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		<title>By: Farhat</title>
		<link>http://cosmicvariance.com/2008/01/20/disinformation-works/#comment-308746</link>
		<dc:creator>Farhat</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 20 Jan 2008 23:59:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cosmicvariance.com/2008/01/20/disinformation-works/#comment-308746</guid>
		<description>Obviously, or they wouldn't use so much of it.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Obviously, or they wouldn&#8217;t use so much of it.</p>
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		<title>By: Yvette</title>
		<link>http://cosmicvariance.com/2008/01/20/disinformation-works/#comment-308745</link>
		<dc:creator>Yvette</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 20 Jan 2008 23:37:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cosmicvariance.com/2008/01/20/disinformation-works/#comment-308745</guid>
		<description>Some people will always act like idiots.  Live with this.

(No really, I just think a better question is if people are acting more as idiots now than they were, say, 20 years ago!)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Some people will always act like idiots.  Live with this.</p>
<p>(No really, I just think a better question is if people are acting more as idiots now than they were, say, 20 years ago!)</p>
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		<title>By: Pseudolethe</title>
		<link>http://cosmicvariance.com/2008/01/20/disinformation-works/#comment-308743</link>
		<dc:creator>Pseudolethe</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 20 Jan 2008 23:26:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cosmicvariance.com/2008/01/20/disinformation-works/#comment-308743</guid>
		<description>Who cares if some voters have trouble expressing their preferences with their votes?  The people who agree with candidate X but vote for candidate Y will be balanced by the people who agree with Y and vote for X.  This sort of thing only matters if there's a systemic asymmetry, which in the absence of hard data is just a restatement of your priors.

Of course, supporters of each party are more inclined to think supporters of the other party will act stupidly, so it makes sense that this particular anxiety shows up every election year.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Who cares if some voters have trouble expressing their preferences with their votes?  The people who agree with candidate X but vote for candidate Y will be balanced by the people who agree with Y and vote for X.  This sort of thing only matters if there&#8217;s a systemic asymmetry, which in the absence of hard data is just a restatement of your priors.</p>
<p>Of course, supporters of each party are more inclined to think supporters of the other party will act stupidly, so it makes sense that this particular anxiety shows up every election year.</p>
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		<title>By: Jason Adams</title>
		<link>http://cosmicvariance.com/2008/01/20/disinformation-works/#comment-308742</link>
		<dc:creator>Jason Adams</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 20 Jan 2008 23:24:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cosmicvariance.com/2008/01/20/disinformation-works/#comment-308742</guid>
		<description>Woah, woah, woah!  Present the facts?  But whose facts do we present?  Various wingnuts have plenty of "facts" to back the position that global warming does not exist.  You just have to ignore other facts.  Compiling a list of all the facts for and against would still be highly controversial and completely overwhelming and confusing to the average voter.

I agree it's the media's fault, but I also don't think they will ever bother to fix it.  Discerning the truth is tough and often disputed, especially when it comes to something as complicated as a tax plan that is supposed to motivate spending.  (Presumably, that is how tax income will increase, people spend more, spurring the economy, resulting in more income to be taxed, etc, right?)

I think another part of the problem is the fact that we buy this crap.  We listen to talking heads spouting rhetoric about change and how life will be better when we blah blah.  We fall for the empty words and no one is ever held accountable.  Oh, and always the other party is to blame.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Woah, woah, woah!  Present the facts?  But whose facts do we present?  Various wingnuts have plenty of &#8220;facts&#8221; to back the position that global warming does not exist.  You just have to ignore other facts.  Compiling a list of all the facts for and against would still be highly controversial and completely overwhelming and confusing to the average voter.</p>
<p>I agree it&#8217;s the media&#8217;s fault, but I also don&#8217;t think they will ever bother to fix it.  Discerning the truth is tough and often disputed, especially when it comes to something as complicated as a tax plan that is supposed to motivate spending.  (Presumably, that is how tax income will increase, people spend more, spurring the economy, resulting in more income to be taxed, etc, right?)</p>
<p>I think another part of the problem is the fact that we buy this crap.  We listen to talking heads spouting rhetoric about change and how life will be better when we blah blah.  We fall for the empty words and no one is ever held accountable.  Oh, and always the other party is to blame.</p>
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		<title>By: TomR</title>
		<link>http://cosmicvariance.com/2008/01/20/disinformation-works/#comment-308739</link>
		<dc:creator>TomR</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 20 Jan 2008 23:11:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cosmicvariance.com/2008/01/20/disinformation-works/#comment-308739</guid>
		<description>Moshe, those are great points.  It's so frustrating to see it generally accepted that we're in the mist of "partisan gridlock" when most of the problem (IMHO) lies with one side, or to hear institutions dedicated to objective analysis derided as "liberal media."

It seems that for most of the last 10 or so years, the mainstream media has been so terrified of being called liberal that they feel some need to give lies equal time with truth.  Or maybe it's just that viewers/subscribers/advertisers prefer to hear about some alternative universe that's a little less challenging than the real one.

And, of course, the U.S. right wing is amazingly skilled at working the media process in their favor.  Kinda ironic: the right was so vocally opposed to the "relativeization of truth" that was an academic fad in the 90's, but they're by far the ones who have benefited the most from it.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Moshe, those are great points.  It&#8217;s so frustrating to see it generally accepted that we&#8217;re in the mist of &#8220;partisan gridlock&#8221; when most of the problem (IMHO) lies with one side, or to hear institutions dedicated to objective analysis derided as &#8220;liberal media.&#8221;</p>
<p>It seems that for most of the last 10 or so years, the mainstream media has been so terrified of being called liberal that they feel some need to give lies equal time with truth.  Or maybe it&#8217;s just that viewers/subscribers/advertisers prefer to hear about some alternative universe that&#8217;s a little less challenging than the real one.</p>
<p>And, of course, the U.S. right wing is amazingly skilled at working the media process in their favor.  Kinda ironic: the right was so vocally opposed to the &#8220;relativeization of truth&#8221; that was an academic fad in the 90&#8217;s, but they&#8217;re by far the ones who have benefited the most from it.</p>
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		<title>By: Moshe</title>
		<link>http://cosmicvariance.com/2008/01/20/disinformation-works/#comment-308737</link>
		<dc:creator>Moshe</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 20 Jan 2008 22:48:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cosmicvariance.com/2008/01/20/disinformation-works/#comment-308737</guid>
		<description>Sean, I think that every media outlet that will decide on rational analysis, including such notions as the factual truth, will find itself very quickly on one side of the political spectrum, and therefore easily denounced as the unbalanced liberal media. This is because unlike what wrote, it is simply untrue that both parties are equally guilty in manipulating the facts. They are all doing it, but not nearly to the same extent. 

I personally blame the impulse of being "balanced", there are some viewpoints (political, scientific, ...) out there that are sufficiently unsupported by the facts to render them outright invalid, but this somehow is a very difficult thing to say, especially in public, especially to people who are not paying attention, without losing credibility.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Sean, I think that every media outlet that will decide on rational analysis, including such notions as the factual truth, will find itself very quickly on one side of the political spectrum, and therefore easily denounced as the unbalanced liberal media. This is because unlike what wrote, it is simply untrue that both parties are equally guilty in manipulating the facts. They are all doing it, but not nearly to the same extent. </p>
<p>I personally blame the impulse of being &#8220;balanced&#8221;, there are some viewpoints (political, scientific, &#8230;) out there that are sufficiently unsupported by the facts to render them outright invalid, but this somehow is a very difficult thing to say, especially in public, especially to people who are not paying attention, without losing credibility.</p>
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		<title>By: Nonnormalizable</title>
		<link>http://cosmicvariance.com/2008/01/20/disinformation-works/#comment-308736</link>
		<dc:creator>Nonnormalizable</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 20 Jan 2008 22:27:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cosmicvariance.com/2008/01/20/disinformation-works/#comment-308736</guid>
		<description>I like the idea very much, but I worry that people might interpret such things not as "Ah, the candidate is lying," but rather, "Ah, the paper is ideologically against the candidate---they're all crooks anyway."

Still likely to be better than the status quo as I see it.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I like the idea very much, but I worry that people might interpret such things not as &#8220;Ah, the candidate is lying,&#8221; but rather, &#8220;Ah, the paper is ideologically against the candidate&#8212;they&#8217;re all crooks anyway.&#8221;</p>
<p>Still likely to be better than the status quo as I see it.</p>
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		<title>By: TomR</title>
		<link>http://cosmicvariance.com/2008/01/20/disinformation-works/#comment-308734</link>
		<dc:creator>TomR</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 20 Jan 2008 22:26:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cosmicvariance.com/2008/01/20/disinformation-works/#comment-308734</guid>
		<description>Sad and scary.

More and more, I wonder if Western Civilization's 500-year experiment with rationality is coming to an end.  

Oh well, at least that investment I made in learning Chinese looks like it might pay off.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Sad and scary.</p>
<p>More and more, I wonder if Western Civilization&#8217;s 500-year experiment with rationality is coming to an end.  </p>
<p>Oh well, at least that investment I made in learning Chinese looks like it might pay off.</p>
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