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	<title>Comments on: Not without a fight</title>
	<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2007/12/11/not-without-a-fight/</link>
	<description>Random samplings from a universe of ideas.</description>
	<pubDate>Fri, 21 Nov 2008 21:17:11 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>By: Former NSF Program Director</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2007/12/11/not-without-a-fight/#comment-34034</link>
		<dc:creator>Former NSF Program Director</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 03 Jan 2008 17:49:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2007/12/11/not-without-a-fight/#comment-34034</guid>
		<description>I spent a few years at NSF in the last decade.

One of my mandates was to increase the impact of my budget by being diverse in several dimensions.   Given equal proposals from MIT and Miskatonic, I'd recommend the latter.   However, generally the MIT proposals were better.

Also, given my fixed budget, my impact was larger if I recommended lower cost institutions (if the quality was comparable).   This is where a public university would have an advantage.

NSF has a special (small) pot of money for undergrad colleges (look up RUI) and for parts of the country that get a disproportionally small amount of money (look up EPSCOR).

NSF is so used to researchers moving and wanting to take their money that it has a special form to make that easy.

Nevertheless, one problem with poor universities is that they're often in parts of the country that don't think education is very important.  Look at the average faculty salaries published in Comical Higher Ed.   In much of the country, they are shamefully low.   Given those boundary conditions, the feds can't do much.

Finally, it's not allowed for invididual reviewers or program directors to require cost sharing that is not mandated in the solicitation.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I spent a few years at NSF in the last decade.</p>
<p>One of my mandates was to increase the impact of my budget by being diverse in several dimensions.   Given equal proposals from MIT and Miskatonic, I&#8217;d recommend the latter.   However, generally the MIT proposals were better.</p>
<p>Also, given my fixed budget, my impact was larger if I recommended lower cost institutions (if the quality was comparable).   This is where a public university would have an advantage.</p>
<p>NSF has a special (small) pot of money for undergrad colleges (look up RUI) and for parts of the country that get a disproportionally small amount of money (look up EPSCOR).</p>
<p>NSF is so used to researchers moving and wanting to take their money that it has a special form to make that easy.</p>
<p>Nevertheless, one problem with poor universities is that they&#8217;re often in parts of the country that don&#8217;t think education is very important.  Look at the average faculty salaries published in Comical Higher Ed.   In much of the country, they are shamefully low.   Given those boundary conditions, the feds can&#8217;t do much.</p>
<p>Finally, it&#8217;s not allowed for invididual reviewers or program directors to require cost sharing that is not mandated in the solicitation.</p>
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		<title>By: Not Even Wrong &#187; Blog Archive &#187; Money, Money, Money</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2007/12/11/not-without-a-fight/#comment-34029</link>
		<dc:creator>Not Even Wrong &#187; Blog Archive &#187; Money, Money, Money</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 27 Dec 2007 01:00:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2007/12/11/not-without-a-fight/#comment-34029</guid>
		<description>[...] grants, there are some interesting comments by Tom Banks in the comment section of this posting at Cosmic Variance. The posting quotes Harvard president Faust as telling lesser schools that they should get out of [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[&#8230;] grants, there are some interesting comments by Tom Banks in the comment section of this posting at Cosmic Variance. The posting quotes Harvard president Faust as telling lesser schools that they should get out of [&#8230;]</p>
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		<title>By: Tom Banks</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2007/12/11/not-without-a-fight/#comment-34035</link>
		<dc:creator>Tom Banks</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 22 Dec 2007 16:13:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2007/12/11/not-without-a-fight/#comment-34035</guid>
		<description>This is a response to Dave Bennet.   The problem at DOE is definitely in all of HE theory, not just string theory, and I have some experience suggesting it's true in HEX as well.   Second, I've been told by several people at DOE that the ONLY way to change relative funding rates is through comments by individual reviewers.  DOE people are government functionaries and cannot go up against powerful interest groups (and make no mistake about it, that's what the elite institutions are in the gov't funding arena) without lots of supporting evidence from individual reviewers.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This is a response to Dave Bennet.   The problem at DOE is definitely in all of HE theory, not just string theory, and I have some experience suggesting it&#8217;s true in HEX as well.   Second, I&#8217;ve been told by several people at DOE that the ONLY way to change relative funding rates is through comments by individual reviewers.  DOE people are government functionaries and cannot go up against powerful interest groups (and make no mistake about it, that&#8217;s what the elite institutions are in the gov&#8217;t funding arena) without lots of supporting evidence from individual reviewers.</p>
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		<title>By: David Bennett</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2007/12/11/not-without-a-fight/#comment-34033</link>
		<dc:creator>David Bennett</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 16 Dec 2007 00:04:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2007/12/11/not-without-a-fight/#comment-34033</guid>
		<description>When reading this post, I was thinking that this is probably not a serious problem because the proposal review committees usually have a pretty broad representation of people from different institutions, and few of the reviewers are likely to hold the view that the most elite universities deserve all the funding. But then I saw Tom's comments, which certainly contradict my expectation. Perhaps this problem is particularly severe in string theory because a larger fraction of the field is at the most elite universities.

It seems to me that it would be best to try and take advantage of the good fortune of these elite institutions for the benefit of science and society as a whole. After all, as Luke Lea mentions, the tax deductibility of the contributions represents a federal subsidy of these institutions.

My suggestion is that we should expect proposals coming from elite institutions, like Harvard, to have a substantial contribution from university matching funds. Of course, it is probably not a good idea for individual reviewers to try implement policy changes in the reviews of individual proposals. But it would be good for the funding agencies to adopt policy like this so that those like Harvard's president Faust will feel the need to devote more of their wealth to direct research support.

A particularly sneaky way to do this would be to include an estimate of the tax subsidies into the calculation of the indirect cost rates that universities can charge. Perhaps the indirect costs at Harvard would be negative!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>When reading this post, I was thinking that this is probably not a serious problem because the proposal review committees usually have a pretty broad representation of people from different institutions, and few of the reviewers are likely to hold the view that the most elite universities deserve all the funding. But then I saw Tom&#8217;s comments, which certainly contradict my expectation. Perhaps this problem is particularly severe in string theory because a larger fraction of the field is at the most elite universities.</p>
<p>It seems to me that it would be best to try and take advantage of the good fortune of these elite institutions for the benefit of science and society as a whole. After all, as Luke Lea mentions, the tax deductibility of the contributions represents a federal subsidy of these institutions.</p>
<p>My suggestion is that we should expect proposals coming from elite institutions, like Harvard, to have a substantial contribution from university matching funds. Of course, it is probably not a good idea for individual reviewers to try implement policy changes in the reviews of individual proposals. But it would be good for the funding agencies to adopt policy like this so that those like Harvard&#8217;s president Faust will feel the need to devote more of their wealth to direct research support.</p>
<p>A particularly sneaky way to do this would be to include an estimate of the tax subsidies into the calculation of the indirect cost rates that universities can charge. Perhaps the indirect costs at Harvard would be negative!</p>
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		<title>By: Luke Shaul</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2007/12/11/not-without-a-fight/#comment-34032</link>
		<dc:creator>Luke Shaul</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 15 Dec 2007 23:00:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2007/12/11/not-without-a-fight/#comment-34032</guid>
		<description>I wouldn't take this too seriously.  There is a particulary strong "mass delusion" type of stupid making it's rounds through varies communities at the moment.  This one seems to be more connected.  Best to take anything in the news with an even larger dose of skepticism.  And be wary of philantropic institutions bearing gifts or offers that seem to good to be true.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I wouldn&#8217;t take this too seriously.  There is a particulary strong &#8220;mass delusion&#8221; type of stupid making it&#8217;s rounds through varies communities at the moment.  This one seems to be more connected.  Best to take anything in the news with an even larger dose of skepticism.  And be wary of philantropic institutions bearing gifts or offers that seem to good to be true.</p>
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		<title>By: Luke Lea</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2007/12/11/not-without-a-fight/#comment-34005</link>
		<dc:creator>Luke Lea</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 15 Dec 2007 18:33:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2007/12/11/not-without-a-fight/#comment-34005</guid>
		<description>I have a better idea.  Break up Harvard.

They have an endowment for ten universities, all stuck up there in a small corner of New England that is growing completely out of touch with the rest of America.

The South and Lower Midwest, in particular, are short of first-rate educational institutions -- and are discriminated against in admissions from places like Harvard, believe it or not.  Read Ross Douthout's book Privilege for substantiation on that last point.

Tax deductible charitable contributions, after all, are partly public money, and the public has a right to a more equitable share of the benefits, maybe?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I have a better idea.  Break up Harvard.</p>
<p>They have an endowment for ten universities, all stuck up there in a small corner of New England that is growing completely out of touch with the rest of America.</p>
<p>The South and Lower Midwest, in particular, are short of first-rate educational institutions &#8212; and are discriminated against in admissions from places like Harvard, believe it or not.  Read Ross Douthout&#8217;s book Privilege for substantiation on that last point.</p>
<p>Tax deductible charitable contributions, after all, are partly public money, and the public has a right to a more equitable share of the benefits, maybe?</p>
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		<title>By: Ben</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2007/12/11/not-without-a-fight/#comment-34031</link>
		<dc:creator>Ben</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 15 Dec 2007 05:45:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2007/12/11/not-without-a-fight/#comment-34031</guid>
		<description>In astronomy, most NSF and NASA small to medium grants are to individuals, not groups, for specific projects.  (Large things are more like satellite or instrumentation proposals and that's a somewhat different story, although again they go to a specific collaboration for that project.)  The grants are evaluated based on the proposal and the track record of the PI and collaborators, or at least that's how it's supposed to work.  By contrast, my understanding is that DOE physics funds groups.  In principle, this means that in astronomy, funding is less tied to the institution and it's harder to coast on a place's or group's reputation.  The downside is that there's not very much guarantee of continuity and people spend a lot of time writing proposals for what by DOE standards might be considered relatively small amounts of money.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In astronomy, most NSF and NASA small to medium grants are to individuals, not groups, for specific projects.  (Large things are more like satellite or instrumentation proposals and that&#8217;s a somewhat different story, although again they go to a specific collaboration for that project.)  The grants are evaluated based on the proposal and the track record of the PI and collaborators, or at least that&#8217;s how it&#8217;s supposed to work.  By contrast, my understanding is that DOE physics funds groups.  In principle, this means that in astronomy, funding is less tied to the institution and it&#8217;s harder to coast on a place&#8217;s or group&#8217;s reputation.  The downside is that there&#8217;s not very much guarantee of continuity and people spend a lot of time writing proposals for what by DOE standards might be considered relatively small amounts of money.</p>
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		<title>By: Moshe</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2007/12/11/not-without-a-fight/#comment-34027</link>
		<dc:creator>Moshe</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 14 Dec 2007 16:52:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2007/12/11/not-without-a-fight/#comment-34027</guid>
		<description>One quick comment about the set of issues Tom raises: I think one thing the Canadian funding agencies are doing right is providing grants to individuals rather than groups. If a person moves then, at least their government funding level does not change (of course other sources of funding may significantly change in such circumstances). Not sure how feasible it is to implement such model elsewhere.

(More generally, I think diversity is important for science, tendency to concentrate on a few centers is not beneficial in the long term. Easier said than done, I know).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>One quick comment about the set of issues Tom raises: I think one thing the Canadian funding agencies are doing right is providing grants to individuals rather than groups. If a person moves then, at least their government funding level does not change (of course other sources of funding may significantly change in such circumstances). Not sure how feasible it is to implement such model elsewhere.</p>
<p>(More generally, I think diversity is important for science, tendency to concentrate on a few centers is not beneficial in the long term. Easier said than done, I know).</p>
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		<title>By: Tom Banks</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2007/12/11/not-without-a-fight/#comment-34028</link>
		<dc:creator>Tom Banks</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 14 Dec 2007 16:03:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2007/12/11/not-without-a-fight/#comment-34028</guid>
		<description>You've opened a real can of worms here.  Elite private institutions are constantly trying to dominate all fields of science.   It's natural.  If you were at such an institution you would just think it was part of the usual attempt to get the best people and most resources for your research that all of us do.  You wouldn't pay attention to the fact that the un-level playing field is tilted in your favor.  And if you said "Let's not go after X, even though he's the best person out there, because it would damage university Y, which is an up and coming place", or "Let's ask for less money from the DOE and suggest that it go to University Z where they're building a great new group", you'd be laughed out of the faculty meeting.

When we tried to build a new group at Rutgers, it was opposed by certain people at certain elite institutions in more or less the same terms as the Faust piece: great science is done at great places and little upstarts should not try to horn in on the game.   When we succeeded in building a great group, we never got the kind of government funding that the elite institutions have (I'm counting dollars per person).   This was at a time when certain elite institutions were at a low ebb and were getting scandalously large amounts per person in return for mediocre research.   And of course, in the end, two of our most successful researchers got stolen away by elite institutions.  You will find by the way that a substantial fraction of the science faculty at elite campuses got there after first proving themselves at other places, and then being stolen.


So much of this is just a consequence of human nature, coupled with the nature of our political/economic system (not that I think there's a better one - except in people's imaginations), that it's hard to see what to do about it.   The two suggestions I have are:

1)If you ever get to review a grant proposal from an elite institution, be fair but don't be polite.   That is: say things like X is a pretty good physicist, but really doesn't deserve to be getting 2-3 times the average funding in this field.  Do a good job, go into depth, and provide a lot of data.   If enough people start doing this the government agencies will at least have to do something about the really egregious cases.   Of course, a lot of the people at these institutions really are the best in the world and deserve extraordinary funding.

2)Advocate a change in funding guidelines earmarking a large fraction of government science funding to institutions whose undergraduate tuition charges for in-state students, are below a certain (inflation indexed) bound.   This is along the lines of "Harvard shouldn't get any government funding" (a point of view I disagree with), but is more likely to actually happen.  Not very likely, just more likely.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>You&#8217;ve opened a real can of worms here.  Elite private institutions are constantly trying to dominate all fields of science.   It&#8217;s natural.  If you were at such an institution you would just think it was part of the usual attempt to get the best people and most resources for your research that all of us do.  You wouldn&#8217;t pay attention to the fact that the un-level playing field is tilted in your favor.  And if you said &#8220;Let&#8217;s not go after X, even though he&#8217;s the best person out there, because it would damage university Y, which is an up and coming place&#8221;, or &#8220;Let&#8217;s ask for less money from the DOE and suggest that it go to University Z where they&#8217;re building a great new group&#8221;, you&#8217;d be laughed out of the faculty meeting.</p>
<p>When we tried to build a new group at Rutgers, it was opposed by certain people at certain elite institutions in more or less the same terms as the Faust piece: great science is done at great places and little upstarts should not try to horn in on the game.   When we succeeded in building a great group, we never got the kind of government funding that the elite institutions have (I&#8217;m counting dollars per person).   This was at a time when certain elite institutions were at a low ebb and were getting scandalously large amounts per person in return for mediocre research.   And of course, in the end, two of our most successful researchers got stolen away by elite institutions.  You will find by the way that a substantial fraction of the science faculty at elite campuses got there after first proving themselves at other places, and then being stolen.</p>
<p>So much of this is just a consequence of human nature, coupled with the nature of our political/economic system (not that I think there&#8217;s a better one - except in people&#8217;s imaginations), that it&#8217;s hard to see what to do about it.   The two suggestions I have are:</p>
<p>1)If you ever get to review a grant proposal from an elite institution, be fair but don&#8217;t be polite.   That is: say things like X is a pretty good physicist, but really doesn&#8217;t deserve to be getting 2-3 times the average funding in this field.  Do a good job, go into depth, and provide a lot of data.   If enough people start doing this the government agencies will at least have to do something about the really egregious cases.   Of course, a lot of the people at these institutions really are the best in the world and deserve extraordinary funding.</p>
<p>2)Advocate a change in funding guidelines earmarking a large fraction of government science funding to institutions whose undergraduate tuition charges for in-state students, are below a certain (inflation indexed) bound.   This is along the lines of &#8220;Harvard shouldn&#8217;t get any government funding&#8221; (a point of view I disagree with), but is more likely to actually happen.  Not very likely, just more likely.</p>
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		<title>By: Haelfix</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2007/12/11/not-without-a-fight/#comment-34025</link>
		<dc:creator>Haelfix</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 14 Dec 2007 08:04:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2007/12/11/not-without-a-fight/#comment-34025</guid>
		<description>I just find it rather intellectually scary that you would want to shift the funding pie from natural sciences to social sciences.

The latter is already so full, that they can't even find novel topics for their grad students without stretching into fluff subjects.  Hence the proliferation of academic research into topics like 'Pornography as a means to analyze racial symbiotic relations in Lithuania'.  Fascinating im sure, yet completely pointless.

Meanwhile, we have a generation of high quality physicists being squeezed out of research positions b/c of funding cuts.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I just find it rather intellectually scary that you would want to shift the funding pie from natural sciences to social sciences.</p>
<p>The latter is already so full, that they can&#8217;t even find novel topics for their grad students without stretching into fluff subjects.  Hence the proliferation of academic research into topics like &#8216;Pornography as a means to analyze racial symbiotic relations in Lithuania&#8217;.  Fascinating im sure, yet completely pointless.</p>
<p>Meanwhile, we have a generation of high quality physicists being squeezed out of research positions b/c of funding cuts.</p>
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