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	<title>Comments on: Unsolicited Advice, V: How to Apply for a Faculty Job</title>
	<atom:link href="http://cosmicvariance.com/2007/09/26/unsolicited-advice-v-how-to-apply-for-a-faculty-job/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://cosmicvariance.com/2007/09/26/unsolicited-advice-v-how-to-apply-for-a-faculty-job/</link>
	<description>Random samplings from a universe of ideas</description>
	<pubDate>Fri, 22 Aug 2008 00:19:10 +0000</pubDate>
	<generator>http://wordpress.org/?v=2.5.1</generator>
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		<title>By: tiger-moon</title>
		<link>http://cosmicvariance.com/2007/09/26/unsolicited-advice-v-how-to-apply-for-a-faculty-job/#comment-301898</link>
		<dc:creator>tiger-moon</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 08 Oct 2007 23:17:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cosmicvariance.com/2007/09/26/unsolicited-advice-v-how-to-apply-for-a-faculty-job/#comment-301898</guid>
		<description>1. Try your best to go to the best universities for you PhD degree;

2. Pass all the exam;

3. Publish good papers;

4. Learn how to handle with "dog fighting";

5. Join in top 1 group during pos-doc period;

6. Go to second level universities for assistant professor position;

7. Raise up;

8. Stanford, Harvard will use money to buy you back;

9. Grab best graduate students;

''''''''''</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>1. Try your best to go to the best universities for you PhD degree;</p>
<p>2. Pass all the exam;</p>
<p>3. Publish good papers;</p>
<p>4. Learn how to handle with &#8220;dog fighting&#8221;;</p>
<p>5. Join in top 1 group during pos-doc period;</p>
<p>6. Go to second level universities for assistant professor position;</p>
<p>7. Raise up;</p>
<p>8. Stanford, Harvard will use money to buy you back;</p>
<p>9. Grab best graduate students;</p>
<p>&#8221;&#8221;&#8221;&#8221;&#8221;</p>
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		<title>By: Garbage</title>
		<link>http://cosmicvariance.com/2007/09/26/unsolicited-advice-v-how-to-apply-for-a-faculty-job/#comment-301561</link>
		<dc:creator>Garbage</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 29 Sep 2007 02:53:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cosmicvariance.com/2007/09/26/unsolicited-advice-v-how-to-apply-for-a-faculty-job/#comment-301561</guid>
		<description>Since this trend of unsolicited advice was originated by Sean, I was curious about what does he have to add to this theme. Havent noticed any comment of his instead. I am sure he must have some good piece of advice for the crowds...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Since this trend of unsolicited advice was originated by Sean, I was curious about what does he have to add to this theme. Havent noticed any comment of his instead. I am sure he must have some good piece of advice for the crowds&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: f15mos</title>
		<link>http://cosmicvariance.com/2007/09/26/unsolicited-advice-v-how-to-apply-for-a-faculty-job/#comment-301554</link>
		<dc:creator>f15mos</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 29 Sep 2007 01:21:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cosmicvariance.com/2007/09/26/unsolicited-advice-v-how-to-apply-for-a-faculty-job/#comment-301554</guid>
		<description>How can it be unsupported by evidence if it has never been done? Sound petty darn stupid.

Meanwhile elsewhere it done left and right. Google does it (asks to solve nontrivial problems) - a pretty well to do company. So do any financial market company while competing for the best of disillusioned former string theorists. Even good old INS admission officers do it. Recall what Einstein was asked when he crossed the border of the land of the free? 
Application process should be a well deserved prize for well spend research work years not the idiocy of what it is now.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>How can it be unsupported by evidence if it has never been done? Sound petty darn stupid.</p>
<p>Meanwhile elsewhere it done left and right. Google does it (asks to solve nontrivial problems) - a pretty well to do company. So do any financial market company while competing for the best of disillusioned former string theorists. Even good old INS admission officers do it. Recall what Einstein was asked when he crossed the border of the land of the free?<br />
Application process should be a well deserved prize for well spend research work years not the idiocy of what it is now.</p>
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		<title>By: Ben</title>
		<link>http://cosmicvariance.com/2007/09/26/unsolicited-advice-v-how-to-apply-for-a-faculty-job/#comment-301551</link>
		<dc:creator>Ben</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 29 Sep 2007 01:08:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cosmicvariance.com/2007/09/26/unsolicited-advice-v-how-to-apply-for-a-faculty-job/#comment-301551</guid>
		<description>f15mos,

That's a load of B.S.  It's also unsupported by the evidence.  Scientists care about the supporting-evidence business, or should.  Lord only knows what purpose IQ tests (!) and entrance exams would serve.  By the way, the problem in most searches appears to be choosing among too many qualified candidates, not weeding out undeserving ones.

Applying for these jobs is a pain in the butt, irritating, and at times degrading.  However, if you let the difficulty of it overtake and own you to the point where you blame all problems on some putative undeserving "blind lesbian," you're ruining your own life with bitterness.  That's okay, but don't inflict it on others.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>f15mos,</p>
<p>That&#8217;s a load of B.S.  It&#8217;s also unsupported by the evidence.  Scientists care about the supporting-evidence business, or should.  Lord only knows what purpose IQ tests (!) and entrance exams would serve.  By the way, the problem in most searches appears to be choosing among too many qualified candidates, not weeding out undeserving ones.</p>
<p>Applying for these jobs is a pain in the butt, irritating, and at times degrading.  However, if you let the difficulty of it overtake and own you to the point where you blame all problems on some putative undeserving &#8220;blind lesbian,&#8221; you&#8217;re ruining your own life with bitterness.  That&#8217;s okay, but don&#8217;t inflict it on others.</p>
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		<title>By: f15mos</title>
		<link>http://cosmicvariance.com/2007/09/26/unsolicited-advice-v-how-to-apply-for-a-faculty-job/#comment-301550</link>
		<dc:creator>f15mos</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 29 Sep 2007 00:49:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cosmicvariance.com/2007/09/26/unsolicited-advice-v-how-to-apply-for-a-faculty-job/#comment-301550</guid>
		<description>This post convinces me once more that American Science would benefit from:

      - abandoning affirmative action
      - establishing IQ thresholds and entrance exams for faculty candidates
        (exams should not be based on multiple choice problems, but be open ended 
        problems including some with unknown solutions).
      - finding out how many papers the applicant has actually written (applies 
        mostly to experimentalists)
      - abandoning tenure. Just hire professors on term contracts with possible 
        extensions based on certain performance markers.

Nowadays you either need to be a blind lesbian or be lucky to be mentored by well connected professor, or be married by one.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This post convinces me once more that American Science would benefit from:</p>
<p>      - abandoning affirmative action<br />
      - establishing IQ thresholds and entrance exams for faculty candidates<br />
        (exams should not be based on multiple choice problems, but be open ended<br />
        problems including some with unknown solutions).<br />
      - finding out how many papers the applicant has actually written (applies<br />
        mostly to experimentalists)<br />
      - abandoning tenure. Just hire professors on term contracts with possible<br />
        extensions based on certain performance markers.</p>
<p>Nowadays you either need to be a blind lesbian or be lucky to be mentored by well connected professor, or be married by one.</p>
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		<title>By: James Chisholm</title>
		<link>http://cosmicvariance.com/2007/09/26/unsolicited-advice-v-how-to-apply-for-a-faculty-job/#comment-301526</link>
		<dc:creator>James Chisholm</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 28 Sep 2007 18:31:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cosmicvariance.com/2007/09/26/unsolicited-advice-v-how-to-apply-for-a-faculty-job/#comment-301526</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;&lt;b&gt;Don’t neglect the cover letter.&lt;/b&gt;&lt;/i&gt;

Very important -- I probably would have gotten at least a few more bites had I taken the time to individualize my cover letters in my first round of applications.  As it was, I used the same technique I used for my postdoc letters, which was a stock letter with name and address merged in.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i><b>Don’t neglect the cover letter.</b></i></p>
<p>Very important &#8212; I probably would have gotten at least a few more bites had I taken the time to individualize my cover letters in my first round of applications.  As it was, I used the same technique I used for my postdoc letters, which was a stock letter with name and address merged in.</p>
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		<title>By: Julianne</title>
		<link>http://cosmicvariance.com/2007/09/26/unsolicited-advice-v-how-to-apply-for-a-faculty-job/#comment-301521</link>
		<dc:creator>Julianne</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 28 Sep 2007 15:02:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cosmicvariance.com/2007/09/26/unsolicited-advice-v-how-to-apply-for-a-faculty-job/#comment-301521</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;You need somebody like an advisor, collaborator or mentor who will help, writing good letters, promoting your work, and caring about your fate (a little).&lt;/blockquote&gt;

Completely agreed!  The one of the pieces of advice I would have added to Sean's piece on being a grad student: "Pick an advisor who you like and who has a track record of going to bat for their students, even if the research is not your first choice scientifically."  I've seen too many pairings where it's clear that the student and the advisor essentially lothe each other, which isn't likely to result in a gushing letter or tons of support after graduation.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>You need somebody like an advisor, collaborator or mentor who will help, writing good letters, promoting your work, and caring about your fate (a little).</p></blockquote>
<p>Completely agreed!  The one of the pieces of advice I would have added to Sean&#8217;s piece on being a grad student: &#8220;Pick an advisor who you like and who has a track record of going to bat for their students, even if the research is not your first choice scientifically.&#8221;  I&#8217;ve seen too many pairings where it&#8217;s clear that the student and the advisor essentially lothe each other, which isn&#8217;t likely to result in a gushing letter or tons of support after graduation.</p>
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		<title>By: Ben</title>
		<link>http://cosmicvariance.com/2007/09/26/unsolicited-advice-v-how-to-apply-for-a-faculty-job/#comment-301515</link>
		<dc:creator>Ben</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 28 Sep 2007 10:16:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cosmicvariance.com/2007/09/26/unsolicited-advice-v-how-to-apply-for-a-faculty-job/#comment-301515</guid>
		<description>Okay, I should not comment on this subject, but I have one addition.  All of these things that the applicant should or must do are very reasonable.  But it's not just you-the-applicant's burden.  I think that tends to make people more stressed out and guilt-ridden, as if they didn't do enough.  As far as I know, nobody really gets a job based just on their own efforts, except for supergeniuses - and supergeniuses tend to also have good letters of recommendation.  You need somebody like an advisor, collaborator or mentor who will help, writing good letters, promoting your work, and caring about your fate (a little).  If your senior people won't help you, probably the best course of action is to politely move on from them (I nearly said "politely fire their asses") and find new senior people who will, in your next postdoc or other career move.

FWIW, don't forget that in a lot of fields (maybe not string theory) there are non-professor science jobs.  Too many people act like the only choices are tenure-track and hedge funds.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Okay, I should not comment on this subject, but I have one addition.  All of these things that the applicant should or must do are very reasonable.  But it&#8217;s not just you-the-applicant&#8217;s burden.  I think that tends to make people more stressed out and guilt-ridden, as if they didn&#8217;t do enough.  As far as I know, nobody really gets a job based just on their own efforts, except for supergeniuses - and supergeniuses tend to also have good letters of recommendation.  You need somebody like an advisor, collaborator or mentor who will help, writing good letters, promoting your work, and caring about your fate (a little).  If your senior people won&#8217;t help you, probably the best course of action is to politely move on from them (I nearly said &#8220;politely fire their asses&#8221;) and find new senior people who will, in your next postdoc or other career move.</p>
<p>FWIW, don&#8217;t forget that in a lot of fields (maybe not string theory) there are non-professor science jobs.  Too many people act like the only choices are tenure-track and hedge funds.</p>
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		<title>By: stressfulyesdemoralizingno</title>
		<link>http://cosmicvariance.com/2007/09/26/unsolicited-advice-v-how-to-apply-for-a-faculty-job/#comment-301502</link>
		<dc:creator>stressfulyesdemoralizingno</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 28 Sep 2007 03:42:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cosmicvariance.com/2007/09/26/unsolicited-advice-v-how-to-apply-for-a-faculty-job/#comment-301502</guid>
		<description>Yes, the whole process is stressful.  But there's no need to get demoralized.  You wouldn't want to be hired by a place where the existing faculty had significant doubts about you before you arrived.  So think of it as a mutual recognition that the fit wasn't right.  At least in my search, I think "fit" was extremely important...  In fact, in retrospect, I'd say that most of my job applications were pointless.  None of the ads and applications that I thought were a stretch resulted in more than a request for references.  On the other hand, of the ads and applications that I did feel good about, a respectable fraction reached the shortlist stage.  Perhaps, I put more effort into the latter.  But if I were doing it again, I'd write half as many applications.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yes, the whole process is stressful.  But there&#8217;s no need to get demoralized.  You wouldn&#8217;t want to be hired by a place where the existing faculty had significant doubts about you before you arrived.  So think of it as a mutual recognition that the fit wasn&#8217;t right.  At least in my search, I think &#8220;fit&#8221; was extremely important&#8230;  In fact, in retrospect, I&#8217;d say that most of my job applications were pointless.  None of the ads and applications that I thought were a stretch resulted in more than a request for references.  On the other hand, of the ads and applications that I did feel good about, a respectable fraction reached the shortlist stage.  Perhaps, I put more effort into the latter.  But if I were doing it again, I&#8217;d write half as many applications.</p>
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		<title>By: Hektor Bim</title>
		<link>http://cosmicvariance.com/2007/09/26/unsolicited-advice-v-how-to-apply-for-a-faculty-job/#comment-301466</link>
		<dc:creator>Hektor Bim</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 27 Sep 2007 19:05:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cosmicvariance.com/2007/09/26/unsolicited-advice-v-how-to-apply-for-a-faculty-job/#comment-301466</guid>
		<description>It's not a question of being demoralized.  It's just a fact, especially if you are not an experimentalist.  You're very likely to have to apply for jobs multiple times, and you'll have to redo much of the work each time.  It's rare to succeed on your first try.  So, yes, you do have to put a huge amount of work into it, and it may take a while to pay off.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It&#8217;s not a question of being demoralized.  It&#8217;s just a fact, especially if you are not an experimentalist.  You&#8217;re very likely to have to apply for jobs multiple times, and you&#8217;ll have to redo much of the work each time.  It&#8217;s rare to succeed on your first try.  So, yes, you do have to put a huge amount of work into it, and it may take a while to pay off.</p>
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		<title>By: Julianne</title>
		<link>http://cosmicvariance.com/2007/09/26/unsolicited-advice-v-how-to-apply-for-a-faculty-job/#comment-301462</link>
		<dc:creator>Julianne</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 27 Sep 2007 18:35:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cosmicvariance.com/2007/09/26/unsolicited-advice-v-how-to-apply-for-a-faculty-job/#comment-301462</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;When, say, pre-tenure, is it affordable to give a bad talk?&lt;/blockquote&gt;

When you've given enough good talks that they assume you just happened to have a bad day, rather than assuming based on a small sample size that you're never going to have anything interesting to tell them.

&lt;blockquote&gt;This is a long list of what it takes to apply to a job. But there’s a substantial amount of work involved in complying with all of this. If you are applying for 50 positions, and trying to publish and go to conferences, and put together a smoking job talk, etc., it’s going to take a colossal amount of time. And you might put in this colossal amount of time and get bupkus. Happens all the time.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

It's true that the effort to reward ratio is high, and I understand being demoralized about it, but if no effort is spent, you're much less likely to be successful.  In that giant stack of applications are people who clearly have their act together, and if you look half-assed, you don't look as good.   I agree with Doug's advice to call people you know in the department first, to see if it's even worth your time.  However, I'd add that you should call more than one person, because not everyone's read on the political situation will be the same.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>When, say, pre-tenure, is it affordable to give a bad talk?</p></blockquote>
<p>When you&#8217;ve given enough good talks that they assume you just happened to have a bad day, rather than assuming based on a small sample size that you&#8217;re never going to have anything interesting to tell them.</p>
<blockquote><p>This is a long list of what it takes to apply to a job. But there’s a substantial amount of work involved in complying with all of this. If you are applying for 50 positions, and trying to publish and go to conferences, and put together a smoking job talk, etc., it’s going to take a colossal amount of time. And you might put in this colossal amount of time and get bupkus. Happens all the time.</p></blockquote>
<p>It&#8217;s true that the effort to reward ratio is high, and I understand being demoralized about it, but if no effort is spent, you&#8217;re much less likely to be successful.  In that giant stack of applications are people who clearly have their act together, and if you look half-assed, you don&#8217;t look as good.   I agree with Doug&#8217;s advice to call people you know in the department first, to see if it&#8217;s even worth your time.  However, I&#8217;d add that you should call more than one person, because not everyone&#8217;s read on the political situation will be the same.</p>
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		<title>By: mollishka</title>
		<link>http://cosmicvariance.com/2007/09/26/unsolicited-advice-v-how-to-apply-for-a-faculty-job/#comment-301457</link>
		<dc:creator>mollishka</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 27 Sep 2007 17:41:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cosmicvariance.com/2007/09/26/unsolicited-advice-v-how-to-apply-for-a-faculty-job/#comment-301457</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;The flip side is that you really can’t afford to give a bad talk at this stage of your career.&lt;/blockquote&gt;


When, say, pre-tenure, &lt;i&gt;is&lt;/i&gt; it affordable to give a bad talk?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>The flip side is that you really can’t afford to give a bad talk at this stage of your career.</p></blockquote>
<p>When, say, pre-tenure, <i>is</i> it affordable to give a bad talk?</p>
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		<title>By: Douglas Clowe</title>
		<link>http://cosmicvariance.com/2007/09/26/unsolicited-advice-v-how-to-apply-for-a-faculty-job/#comment-301452</link>
		<dc:creator>Douglas Clowe</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 27 Sep 2007 16:05:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cosmicvariance.com/2007/09/26/unsolicited-advice-v-how-to-apply-for-a-faculty-job/#comment-301452</guid>
		<description>Just to reinforce a point that Julianne made, even when the job description doesn't explicitly mention that they are looking for a specific specialty, they usually are.  I think I've given close to 10 colloquia over the past year and a half at universities which didn't put me on a short list to be hired at some point in the past 4 years.  When asked over beer, people who were on the committee usually say that the department had decided before looking over any of the applications that they wanted someone who did stellar astronomy, or galaxy evolution, etc.  A friend even got rejected from consideration at one position which was advertised in exactly the field he was working in because they felt his research too closely overlapped that of an existing faculty member.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Just to reinforce a point that Julianne made, even when the job description doesn&#8217;t explicitly mention that they are looking for a specific specialty, they usually are.  I think I&#8217;ve given close to 10 colloquia over the past year and a half at universities which didn&#8217;t put me on a short list to be hired at some point in the past 4 years.  When asked over beer, people who were on the committee usually say that the department had decided before looking over any of the applications that they wanted someone who did stellar astronomy, or galaxy evolution, etc.  A friend even got rejected from consideration at one position which was advertised in exactly the field he was working in because they felt his research too closely overlapped that of an existing faculty member.</p>
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		<title>By: Doug Natelson</title>
		<link>http://cosmicvariance.com/2007/09/26/unsolicited-advice-v-how-to-apply-for-a-faculty-job/#comment-301447</link>
		<dc:creator>Doug Natelson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 27 Sep 2007 14:36:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cosmicvariance.com/2007/09/26/unsolicited-advice-v-how-to-apply-for-a-faculty-job/#comment-301447</guid>
		<description>I actually just wrote a very similar post &lt;a href="http://nanoscale.blogspot.com/2007/09/revised-primer-on-faculty-searches-part.html" rel="nofollow"&gt;here&lt;/a&gt; about the physics side.  No secret handshakes that I know about.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I actually just wrote a very similar post <a href="http://nanoscale.blogspot.com/2007/09/revised-primer-on-faculty-searches-part.html" rel="nofollow">here</a> about the physics side.  No secret handshakes that I know about.</p>
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		<title>By: Paul</title>
		<link>http://cosmicvariance.com/2007/09/26/unsolicited-advice-v-how-to-apply-for-a-faculty-job/#comment-301444</link>
		<dc:creator>Paul</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 27 Sep 2007 14:13:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cosmicvariance.com/2007/09/26/unsolicited-advice-v-how-to-apply-for-a-faculty-job/#comment-301444</guid>
		<description>Retire to a country farm, live simply, translate articles from the Russian to make money, then you'll have time to sort out time. It worked for Julian Barbour. Or become a vicar or civil servant. It worked for all those Brits in the 19th century. Or, become the departmental IT person. The computers run themselves, or you can delegate. No one can question your doings because you have the superuser password.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Retire to a country farm, live simply, translate articles from the Russian to make money, then you&#8217;ll have time to sort out time. It worked for Julian Barbour. Or become a vicar or civil servant. It worked for all those Brits in the 19th century. Or, become the departmental IT person. The computers run themselves, or you can delegate. No one can question your doings because you have the superuser password.</p>
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		<title>By: Hektor Bim</title>
		<link>http://cosmicvariance.com/2007/09/26/unsolicited-advice-v-how-to-apply-for-a-faculty-job/#comment-301436</link>
		<dc:creator>Hektor Bim</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 27 Sep 2007 12:58:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cosmicvariance.com/2007/09/26/unsolicited-advice-v-how-to-apply-for-a-faculty-job/#comment-301436</guid>
		<description>I also want to concur with the last point.  There's a book out there called "A Ph.D. is not Enough!".  The book isn't perfect, but one thing it plays up is going to a national lab instead of a faculty position, and that is often (though not always) an excellent choice.  The pay is a lot better starting out, and there are no faculty meetings!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I also want to concur with the last point.  There&#8217;s a book out there called &#8220;A Ph.D. is not Enough!&#8221;.  The book isn&#8217;t perfect, but one thing it plays up is going to a national lab instead of a faculty position, and that is often (though not always) an excellent choice.  The pay is a lot better starting out, and there are no faculty meetings!</p>
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		<title>By: Hektor Bim</title>
		<link>http://cosmicvariance.com/2007/09/26/unsolicited-advice-v-how-to-apply-for-a-faculty-job/#comment-301435</link>
		<dc:creator>Hektor Bim</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 27 Sep 2007 12:50:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cosmicvariance.com/2007/09/26/unsolicited-advice-v-how-to-apply-for-a-faculty-job/#comment-301435</guid>
		<description>I've seen age discrimination at other steps in the process.  I'd be very surprised if it didn't manifest itself for faculty jobs, especially because of the folk wisdom that scientists don't produce anything groundbreaking after they are 35.

As a corollary to this post, it's important to remember something else.  Most people fail in this process.  Most of your peers in graduate school, even if you went to a top ten research university, are not going to get faculty jobs.  It's also much easier for experimentalists to get jobs.

This is a long list of what it takes to apply to a job.  But there's a substantial amount of work involved in complying with all of this.  If you are applying for 50 positions, and trying to publish and go to conferences, and put together a smoking job talk, etc., it's going to take a colossal amount of time.  And you might put in this colossal amount of time and get bupkus.  Happens all the time.

If your advisers (grad school and postdoc) aren't willing to call their friends and put in a good word for you - it's going to be a lot tougher.  That's something it is important to know about your grad adviser before you sign on.  Many advisers are perfectly willing to let their students dangle in the mistaken belief that the system is a pure meritocracy and that brilliance will naturally rise to the top.  It's not true, and you want to use every possible connection you have to rise above the masses.  That's really how people get jobs.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;ve seen age discrimination at other steps in the process.  I&#8217;d be very surprised if it didn&#8217;t manifest itself for faculty jobs, especially because of the folk wisdom that scientists don&#8217;t produce anything groundbreaking after they are 35.</p>
<p>As a corollary to this post, it&#8217;s important to remember something else.  Most people fail in this process.  Most of your peers in graduate school, even if you went to a top ten research university, are not going to get faculty jobs.  It&#8217;s also much easier for experimentalists to get jobs.</p>
<p>This is a long list of what it takes to apply to a job.  But there&#8217;s a substantial amount of work involved in complying with all of this.  If you are applying for 50 positions, and trying to publish and go to conferences, and put together a smoking job talk, etc., it&#8217;s going to take a colossal amount of time.  And you might put in this colossal amount of time and get bupkus.  Happens all the time.</p>
<p>If your advisers (grad school and postdoc) aren&#8217;t willing to call their friends and put in a good word for you - it&#8217;s going to be a lot tougher.  That&#8217;s something it is important to know about your grad adviser before you sign on.  Many advisers are perfectly willing to let their students dangle in the mistaken belief that the system is a pure meritocracy and that brilliance will naturally rise to the top.  It&#8217;s not true, and you want to use every possible connection you have to rise above the masses.  That&#8217;s really how people get jobs.</p>
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		<title>By: Simon DeDeo</title>
		<link>http://cosmicvariance.com/2007/09/26/unsolicited-advice-v-how-to-apply-for-a-faculty-job/#comment-301420</link>
		<dc:creator>Simon DeDeo</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 27 Sep 2007 04:47:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cosmicvariance.com/2007/09/26/unsolicited-advice-v-how-to-apply-for-a-faculty-job/#comment-301420</guid>
		<description>god im so scared im typing in all lowercase

going on the postdoc market is bad enough</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>god im so scared im typing in all lowercase</p>
<p>going on the postdoc market is bad enough</p>
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		<title>By: Few more links! &#171; Entertaining Research</title>
		<link>http://cosmicvariance.com/2007/09/26/unsolicited-advice-v-how-to-apply-for-a-faculty-job/#comment-301403</link>
		<dc:creator>Few more links! &#171; Entertaining Research</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 27 Sep 2007 03:30:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cosmicvariance.com/2007/09/26/unsolicited-advice-v-how-to-apply-for-a-faculty-job/#comment-301403</guid>
		<description>[...] With grad student advice, can applying for faculty jobs be far behind? Julianne at Cosmic Variance offers some (unsolicited, but timely for some of us) advice; [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] With grad student advice, can applying for faculty jobs be far behind? Julianne at Cosmic Variance offers some (unsolicited, but timely for some of us) advice; [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Julianne</title>
		<link>http://cosmicvariance.com/2007/09/26/unsolicited-advice-v-how-to-apply-for-a-faculty-job/#comment-301402</link>
		<dc:creator>Julianne</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 27 Sep 2007 02:35:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cosmicvariance.com/2007/09/26/unsolicited-advice-v-how-to-apply-for-a-faculty-job/#comment-301402</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;How common is age discrimination?&lt;/blockquote&gt;

I haven't noticed any examples of it.  There's definitely "stage discrimination" (i.e. for or against more senior faculty trying to switch jobs), but I've never seen anyone single out an applicant for being 45 rather than 35.  It might start to be an issue if an applicant started to approach an age where they might retire at the same time they got tenure.  The older (40-50 yr old) grad students I've known have largely self-selected out of the research faculty pool in anticipation of this.  They have, however, applied to more teaching oriented faculty positions.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>How common is age discrimination?</p></blockquote>
<p>I haven&#8217;t noticed any examples of it.  There&#8217;s definitely &#8220;stage discrimination&#8221; (i.e. for or against more senior faculty trying to switch jobs), but I&#8217;ve never seen anyone single out an applicant for being 45 rather than 35.  It might start to be an issue if an applicant started to approach an age where they might retire at the same time they got tenure.  The older (40-50 yr old) grad students I&#8217;ve known have largely self-selected out of the research faculty pool in anticipation of this.  They have, however, applied to more teaching oriented faculty positions.</p>
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