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	<title>Comments on: Focus</title>
	<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2007/05/09/focus/</link>
	<description>Random samplings from a universe of ideas.</description>
	<pubDate>Fri, 21 Nov 2008 20:41:43 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>By: MedallionOfFerret</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2007/05/09/focus/#comment-28281</link>
		<dc:creator>MedallionOfFerret</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 20 May 2007 03:29:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2007/05/09/focus/#comment-28281</guid>
		<description>I suggest that Sean didn't include enough detail for the conclusions jumped to on both sides.

One of the first things scientists should do is question whether there is enough information available to draw a useful conclusion.  Actually, that's one of the first things everyone should do, on every optional decision.   When you gotta make a decision with less than optimal data, sure--make the decision.  But when it doesn't have to be done, don't do it.

For those of you who like to jump to conclusions, I do have a few select shares in the Brooklyn Bridge I have been authorized to let go to individuals with sufficient monetary resources.  Feel free to jump.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I suggest that Sean didn&#8217;t include enough detail for the conclusions jumped to on both sides.</p>
<p>One of the first things scientists should do is question whether there is enough information available to draw a useful conclusion.  Actually, that&#8217;s one of the first things everyone should do, on every optional decision.   When you gotta make a decision with less than optimal data, sure&#8211;make the decision.  But when it doesn&#8217;t have to be done, don&#8217;t do it.</p>
<p>For those of you who like to jump to conclusions, I do have a few select shares in the Brooklyn Bridge I have been authorized to let go to individuals with sufficient monetary resources.  Feel free to jump.</p>
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		<title>By: Ponder Stibbons</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2007/05/09/focus/#comment-28315</link>
		<dc:creator>Ponder Stibbons</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 13 May 2007 08:05:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2007/05/09/focus/#comment-28315</guid>
		<description>John, I believe it is implicit in the fact that the student is a borderline admission case that he had the requisite physics background, and so would not have had to play catch-up. &lt;a href="http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2007/05/09/focus/#comment-260632" rel="nofollow"&gt;Mark's comment&lt;/a&gt; supports this interpretation. Simply put, after looking at the usual credentials, the student was considered on par with several other students, all "on the bubble". However, in order to break the tie, the fact that that student had an M.Div was used against him.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>John, I believe it is implicit in the fact that the student is a borderline admission case that he had the requisite physics background, and so would not have had to play catch-up. <a href="http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2007/05/09/focus/#comment-260632" rel="nofollow">Mark&#8217;s comment</a> supports this interpretation. Simply put, after looking at the usual credentials, the student was considered on par with several other students, all &#8220;on the bubble&#8221;. However, in order to break the tie, the fact that that student had an M.Div was used against him.</p>
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		<title>By: John R Ramsden</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2007/05/09/focus/#comment-28277</link>
		<dc:creator>John R Ramsden</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 13 May 2007 01:06:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2007/05/09/focus/#comment-28277</guid>
		<description>Several people have used the phrase "on the bubble", which was unfamiliar to me but, as I gather from a quick web search, means "just short of a position or prize with a monetary award". It's pretty obvious how this would apply to, say, a pool competition; but could someone briefly explain, to someone not in academia, how it relates to a university admission?

Surely this guy could not have expected to go straight from an M.Div to a physics PhD program without having previously obtained a physics BSc and MSc, or can we take the latter as read and I'm being obtuse for even mentioning it?

One last point, which I don't think anyone has mentioned. Could the profs' real reason for rejecting the applicant have been a concern that in switching from M.Div to physics, which might involve a rapid catch-up, the applicant would somehow "show up" the physics department and the other students by proving in catching up that the syllabus and/or standard time alloted for it was not as demanding as it might be?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Several people have used the phrase &#8220;on the bubble&#8221;, which was unfamiliar to me but, as I gather from a quick web search, means &#8220;just short of a position or prize with a monetary award&#8221;. It&#8217;s pretty obvious how this would apply to, say, a pool competition; but could someone briefly explain, to someone not in academia, how it relates to a university admission?</p>
<p>Surely this guy could not have expected to go straight from an M.Div to a physics PhD program without having previously obtained a physics BSc and MSc, or can we take the latter as read and I&#8217;m being obtuse for even mentioning it?</p>
<p>One last point, which I don&#8217;t think anyone has mentioned. Could the profs&#8217; real reason for rejecting the applicant have been a concern that in switching from M.Div to physics, which might involve a rapid catch-up, the applicant would somehow &#8220;show up&#8221; the physics department and the other students by proving in catching up that the syllabus and/or standard time alloted for it was not as demanding as it might be?</p>
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		<title>By: Focus: Not What It Seems &#171; The truth makes me fret.</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2007/05/09/focus/#comment-28298</link>
		<dc:creator>Focus: Not What It Seems &#171; The truth makes me fret.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 12 May 2007 05:12:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2007/05/09/focus/#comment-28298</guid>
		<description>[...] Focus: Not What It&#160;Seems  Sean Carroll tells of a true experience where a borderline applicant to a physics PhD program at a major research university (since he spent seven years at the U of C, it could be here) is denied admission partly on the basis of having an M.Div. I posted a comment (which seems to have gone into a black hole) mentioning that [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[&#8230;] Focus: Not What It&nbsp;Seems  Sean Carroll tells of a true experience where a borderline applicant to a physics PhD program at a major research university (since he spent seven years at the U of C, it could be here) is denied admission partly on the basis of having an M.Div. I posted a comment (which seems to have gone into a black hole) mentioning that [&#8230;]</p>
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		<title>By: Ponder Stibbons</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2007/05/09/focus/#comment-28317</link>
		<dc:creator>Ponder Stibbons</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 12 May 2007 04:43:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2007/05/09/focus/#comment-28317</guid>
		<description>I have no idea if Sean's experience was at the U of C, but as an undergrad there, I've had mixed reactions when I tell physicists that I'm also a philosophy major. Three physicists approved of that combination (with the caveat that one of those three has worked on foundations of physics issues), but I did encounter one who was strongly dismayed by that. In contrast with this professor's attitude, philosophy professors regard double majors with unequivocal approval, especially if the non-philosophy major is in a quantitative field. And it's not just that they prefer applicants who specialise in philosophy of science to have a science degree: quantitative experience is regarded as an intrinsic indicator of philosophical potential whether one is an ethicist or a logician.

I also agree with those who suggest that people who have changed fields tend to have given greater thought to why they finally choose physics. In my opinion, way too many undergrads rush headlong into physics grad school because that's the standard thing to do. Very few of them know enough about other fields to make a truly informed choice. But perhaps those on top who disapprove of polymaths like to have ignorant proteges whom, as they become increasingly specialised in physics, are unlikely to be lured away by other temptations.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I have no idea if Sean&#8217;s experience was at the U of C, but as an undergrad there, I&#8217;ve had mixed reactions when I tell physicists that I&#8217;m also a philosophy major. Three physicists approved of that combination (with the caveat that one of those three has worked on foundations of physics issues), but I did encounter one who was strongly dismayed by that. In contrast with this professor&#8217;s attitude, philosophy professors regard double majors with unequivocal approval, especially if the non-philosophy major is in a quantitative field. And it&#8217;s not just that they prefer applicants who specialise in philosophy of science to have a science degree: quantitative experience is regarded as an intrinsic indicator of philosophical potential whether one is an ethicist or a logician.</p>
<p>I also agree with those who suggest that people who have changed fields tend to have given greater thought to why they finally choose physics. In my opinion, way too many undergrads rush headlong into physics grad school because that&#8217;s the standard thing to do. Very few of them know enough about other fields to make a truly informed choice. But perhaps those on top who disapprove of polymaths like to have ignorant proteges whom, as they become increasingly specialised in physics, are unlikely to be lured away by other temptations.</p>
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		<title>By: Ponder Stibbons</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2007/05/09/focus/#comment-28278</link>
		<dc:creator>Ponder Stibbons</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 12 May 2007 04:21:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2007/05/09/focus/#comment-28278</guid>
		<description>Re &lt;a href="http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2007/05/09/focus/#comment-259727" rel="nofollow"&gt;Ben's comment&lt;/a&gt;:

I was also told by at least two professors that taking time off would count against me. I think that's something that probably varies from person to person. But the fact that there exist people on admissions committees who frown upon taking a year or two off is enough to induce trepidation about taking time off. I can understand why they would balk at candidates who stayed away from physics for longer periods, since it is likely that one's skills would deteriorate in over longer periods, but one or two years seem perfectly reasonable to me.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Re <a href="http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2007/05/09/focus/#comment-259727" rel="nofollow">Ben&#8217;s comment</a>:</p>
<p>I was also told by at least two professors that taking time off would count against me. I think that&#8217;s something that probably varies from person to person. But the fact that there exist people on admissions committees who frown upon taking a year or two off is enough to induce trepidation about taking time off. I can understand why they would balk at candidates who stayed away from physics for longer periods, since it is likely that one&#8217;s skills would deteriorate in over longer periods, but one or two years seem perfectly reasonable to me.</p>
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		<title>By: Ponder Stibbons</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2007/05/09/focus/#comment-28280</link>
		<dc:creator>Ponder Stibbons</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 12 May 2007 04:18:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2007/05/09/focus/#comment-28280</guid>
		<description>bubble:

The comparison is not between M.Divs and M.Scs. Most students applying ti US grad schools have only Bachelor's. I'm assuming, since the student in question was on the bubble, that he had a Bachelor's in physics, or equivalent physics experience. So, just because the student went on to get an M. Div where other applicants simply applied straight to physics grad school, he is discarded.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>bubble:</p>
<p>The comparison is not between M.Divs and M.Scs. Most students applying ti US grad schools have only Bachelor&#8217;s. I&#8217;m assuming, since the student in question was on the bubble, that he had a Bachelor&#8217;s in physics, or equivalent physics experience. So, just because the student went on to get an M. Div where other applicants simply applied straight to physics grad school, he is discarded.</p>
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		<title>By: Mark</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2007/05/09/focus/#comment-28279</link>
		<dc:creator>Mark</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 12 May 2007 03:55:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2007/05/09/focus/#comment-28279</guid>
		<description>I disagree with you bubble. Presumably, the totality of the student's scores, letters, applications packet, and educational history were taken into account and after all that, they were "on the bubble". The problem with what happened is that having studied for an M.Div. was taken as a lack of focus and therefore a reason not to admit.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I disagree with you bubble. Presumably, the totality of the student&#8217;s scores, letters, applications packet, and educational history were taken into account and after all that, they were &#8220;on the bubble&#8221;. The problem with what happened is that having studied for an M.Div. was taken as a lack of focus and therefore a reason not to admit.</p>
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		<title>By: bubble</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2007/05/09/focus/#comment-28297</link>
		<dc:creator>bubble</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 11 May 2007 22:04:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2007/05/09/focus/#comment-28297</guid>
		<description>I'm not sure that the issue only has to do with universities narrow-mindedly not wanting to admit students with breadth.  Personally, I would happily accept a student with a masters in biology or math or engineering or chemistry.  However, I would certainly have some apprehension about a student with an M.Div.  I think it's quite unlikely that an M.Div. requires that same kind of critical thinking, attention to detail and capacity for logic that an M.Sc. requires.  Given that this student was already on the bubble, I think this is a perfectly reasonable excuse to deny admission.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m not sure that the issue only has to do with universities narrow-mindedly not wanting to admit students with breadth.  Personally, I would happily accept a student with a masters in biology or math or engineering or chemistry.  However, I would certainly have some apprehension about a student with an M.Div.  I think it&#8217;s quite unlikely that an M.Div. requires that same kind of critical thinking, attention to detail and capacity for logic that an M.Sc. requires.  Given that this student was already on the bubble, I think this is a perfectly reasonable excuse to deny admission.</p>
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		<title>By: Tom C.</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2007/05/09/focus/#comment-28314</link>
		<dc:creator>Tom C.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 11 May 2007 14:49:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2007/05/09/focus/#comment-28314</guid>
		<description>As someone who applied to Physics &#38; Astronomy grad programs with a resume that included on-the-bubble raw numbers and lots of "focus" flags (liberal arts degree, time off to do odd stuff), I would caution against drawing general conclusions from this single anecdote.  In conversations with admissions committees and department faculty, I found their attitudes towards candidates like me to be varied, almost random.  Certain departments which one would have expected to be quite conservative were surprisingly open to non-cookie-cutter candidates, while others rejected them (well, rejected me at least) without a second thought.  As long as there are quality departments that will consider admitting people with a wide range of backgrounds and qualifications, I don't believe we are in a crisis situation.  And if (as many commenters have asserted) the more narrow-minded top departments are missing out on some of the best people, then they won't be top departments for long.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>As someone who applied to Physics &amp; Astronomy grad programs with a resume that included on-the-bubble raw numbers and lots of &#8220;focus&#8221; flags (liberal arts degree, time off to do odd stuff), I would caution against drawing general conclusions from this single anecdote.  In conversations with admissions committees and department faculty, I found their attitudes towards candidates like me to be varied, almost random.  Certain departments which one would have expected to be quite conservative were surprisingly open to non-cookie-cutter candidates, while others rejected them (well, rejected me at least) without a second thought.  As long as there are quality departments that will consider admitting people with a wide range of backgrounds and qualifications, I don&#8217;t believe we are in a crisis situation.  And if (as many commenters have asserted) the more narrow-minded top departments are missing out on some of the best people, then they won&#8217;t be top departments for long.</p>
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