Comments on: To Infinity, Although Beyond Might Be Too Expensive http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2007/04/05/to-infinity-although-beyond-might-be-too-expensive/ Random samplings from a universe of ideas. Fri, 21 Nov 2008 17:33:21 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.3.1 By: Scott H. http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2007/04/05/to-infinity-although-beyond-might-be-too-expensive/#comment-27165 Scott H. Wed, 11 Apr 2007 15:41:35 +0000 http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2007/04/05/to-infinity-although-beyond-might-be-too-expensive/#comment-27165 <i>Lisa is my favorite Beyond Einstein project. Is there a chance that Europe might do the whole project without us or with minimal participation from us?</i> It's not inconceivable ... but I doubt it. They've made noises about doing it alone before (indeed, it was a European-only project in one of its early proposals), and I suspect would like to find a way to be European-only again, but the costs are large enough that a partner of NASA scale makes the project more palatable to ESA member states. Lisa is my favorite Beyond Einstein project. Is there a chance that Europe might do the whole project without us or with minimal participation from us?

It’s not inconceivable … but I doubt it. They’ve made noises about doing it alone before (indeed, it was a European-only project in one of its early proposals), and I suspect would like to find a way to be European-only again, but the costs are large enough that a partner of NASA scale makes the project more palatable to ESA member states.

]]> By: Count Iblis http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2007/04/05/to-infinity-although-beyond-might-be-too-expensive/#comment-27193 Count Iblis Tue, 10 Apr 2007 22:59:43 +0000 http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2007/04/05/to-infinity-although-beyond-might-be-too-expensive/#comment-27193 Chris: <blockquote>Are you saying that there is no scientific purpose for going to Mars? I agree that a return trip to the moon is useless, but I thought that further study of Mars could yield data about the formation of our solar system? </blockquote> I agree with Sean's response about robots exploring Mars. I actually believe that if there are difficult tasks that cannot be done by robots, it would still be cheaper to spend tens of billions of dollars to make better robots that can do such tasks than send humans to Mars. Our desire to explore the Solar System will thus lead to better and better robots until they replace us, as I explain <a href="http://countiblis.blogspot.com/2005/11/olums-paradox-religion-and-intelligent.html" rel="nofollow">here.</a> :) Chris:

Are you saying that there is no scientific purpose for going to Mars? I agree that a return trip to the moon is useless, but I thought that further study of Mars could yield data about the formation of our solar system?

I agree with Sean’s response about robots exploring Mars. I actually believe that if there are difficult tasks that cannot be done by robots, it would still be cheaper to spend tens of billions of dollars to make better robots that can do such tasks than send humans to Mars.

Our desire to explore the Solar System will thus lead to better and better robots until they replace us, as I explain
here. :)

]]> By: Brian http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2007/04/05/to-infinity-although-beyond-might-be-too-expensive/#comment-27164 Brian Tue, 10 Apr 2007 19:35:22 +0000 http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2007/04/05/to-infinity-although-beyond-might-be-too-expensive/#comment-27164 Lisa is my favorite Beyond Einstein project. Is there a chance that Europe might do the whole project without us or with minimal participation from us? From the other side, I hope the next president will be a bit less clueless. Maybe NASA's direction can be changed in a couple of years. Lisa is my favorite Beyond Einstein project. Is there a chance that Europe might do the whole project without us or with minimal participation from us?

From the other side, I hope the next president will be a bit less clueless. Maybe NASA’s direction can be changed in a couple of years.

]]> By: Chris W. http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2007/04/05/to-infinity-although-beyond-might-be-too-expensive/#comment-27196 Chris W. Tue, 10 Apr 2007 15:16:11 +0000 http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2007/04/05/to-infinity-although-beyond-might-be-too-expensive/#comment-27196 Paul: <em>At the rate things are going, we are in danger of doing neither exploration nor science. Then everyone will be unhappy.</em> With any luck the Asian economies will lose interest in financing our federal debt and will push the government into default. Then the aerospace and defense contractors will have to find some other trough to feed at. Of course, we'll all be in the midst of a full-scale depression, and science will revert to the status it had in this country around, say, 1850... (Of course, said Asian countries don't really want to deal with the worldwide economic blowback of this scenario...at least, I don't think so.) Paul: At the rate things are going, we are in danger of doing neither exploration nor science. Then everyone will be unhappy.

With any luck the Asian economies will lose interest in financing our federal debt and will push the government into default. Then the aerospace and defense contractors will have to find some other trough to feed at. Of course, we’ll all be in the midst of a full-scale depression, and science will revert to the status it had in this country around, say, 1850…

(Of course, said Asian countries don’t really want to deal with the worldwide economic blowback of this scenario…at least, I don’t think so.)

]]> By: Sean http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2007/04/05/to-infinity-although-beyond-might-be-too-expensive/#comment-27191 Sean Tue, 10 Apr 2007 15:08:41 +0000 http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2007/04/05/to-infinity-although-beyond-might-be-too-expensive/#comment-27191 B (to answer your somewhat old question) -- that's exactly what this panel is trying to decide; which of any of the missions should even fly. The timeline will depend on which is chosen. B (to answer your somewhat old question) — that’s exactly what this panel is trying to decide; which of any of the missions should even fly. The timeline will depend on which is chosen.

]]> By: Sean http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2007/04/05/to-infinity-although-beyond-might-be-too-expensive/#comment-27195 Sean Tue, 10 Apr 2007 15:07:07 +0000 http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2007/04/05/to-infinity-although-beyond-might-be-too-expensive/#comment-27195 There's lots of science to be done by going to both the Moon and Mars, but not by sending human beings there. The return per dollar, given the current state of the art, is enormously larger for robotic missions. There’s lots of science to be done by going to both the Moon and Mars, but not by sending human beings there. The return per dollar, given the current state of the art, is enormously larger for robotic missions.

]]> By: Chris http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2007/04/05/to-infinity-although-beyond-might-be-too-expensive/#comment-27192 Chris Tue, 10 Apr 2007 14:25:39 +0000 http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2007/04/05/to-infinity-although-beyond-might-be-too-expensive/#comment-27192 Are you saying that there is no scientific purpose for going to Mars? I agree that a return trip to the moon is useless, but I thought that further study of Mars could yield data about the formation of our solar system? Are you saying that there is no scientific purpose for going to Mars? I agree that a return trip to the moon is useless, but I thought that further study of Mars could yield data about the formation of our solar system?

]]> By: Qubit http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2007/04/05/to-infinity-although-beyond-might-be-too-expensive/#comment-27186 Qubit Sat, 07 Apr 2007 21:22:13 +0000 http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2007/04/05/to-infinity-although-beyond-might-be-too-expensive/#comment-27186 #19 this is all about coming up with a TOE, but a Theory Of Everything is the biggest paradox there is, there should be a 50% chance that you prove that everything does not exist, what then? Then everything will come up with the simplest solution to that! Prevention is better than a cure! Are there any more gremlins at the LHC? Maybe the earth will throw in a couple of earthquakes, just to set them back 5 years Maybe then a couple of carefully placed asteroids, hitting major cities, all by chance of course or not as may be the case! Billions of people, with no land to live on, Plagues, Terrorism (am I still allowed to say that?), floods and wind speeds exceeding the speed of sound? What does happen to a storm that does that? Creation of plagues that are nano in nature and use entanglement to its perfect super partner, can't kill a virus if you don't know were it is? If science can do it, nature will as well. Ten years is not that long, nothing will have change by then, man will still be polluting more than ever. Science needs to make a choice; Red pill see how far the rabbit hole goes, stay here and never get out of that hole. Or blue pill forget the rabbit hole and save the planet! But make sure all our eggs are not in one basket, we need another planet and we need it yesterday! Space is the most unforgiving environment there is and the earth is in it! For the last 100,000 years man has been lucky! Very lucky! #19 this is all about coming up with a TOE, but a Theory Of Everything is the biggest paradox there is, there should be a 50% chance that you prove that everything does not exist, what then? Then everything will come up with the simplest solution to that! Prevention is better than a cure! Are there any more gremlins at the LHC? Maybe the earth will throw in a couple of earthquakes, just to set them back 5 years Maybe then a couple of carefully placed asteroids, hitting major cities, all by chance of course or not as may be the case!
Billions of people, with no land to live on, Plagues, Terrorism (am I still allowed to say that?), floods and wind speeds exceeding the speed of sound? What does happen to a storm that does that?

Creation of plagues that are nano in nature and use entanglement to its perfect super partner, can’t kill a virus if you don’t know were it is? If science can do it, nature will as well.

Ten years is not that long, nothing will have change by then, man will still be polluting more than ever. Science needs to make a choice; Red pill see how far the rabbit hole goes, stay here and never get out of that hole. Or blue pill forget the rabbit hole and save the planet! But make sure all our eggs are not in one basket, we need another planet and we need it yesterday! Space is the most unforgiving environment there is and the earth is in it! For the last 100,000 years man has been lucky! Very lucky!

]]> By: B http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2007/04/05/to-infinity-although-beyond-might-be-too-expensive/#comment-27185 B Sat, 07 Apr 2007 15:37:24 +0000 http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2007/04/05/to-infinity-although-beyond-might-be-too-expensive/#comment-27185 Hi Sean, thanks. I would go for grav. lensing. What is the timescale for this experiment to be planned and scheduled? Best, B. Hi Sean,

thanks. I would go for grav. lensing. What is the timescale for this experiment to be planned and scheduled? Best,

B.

]]> By: spaceman http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2007/04/05/to-infinity-although-beyond-might-be-too-expensive/#comment-27194 spaceman Sat, 07 Apr 2007 04:38:22 +0000 http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2007/04/05/to-infinity-although-beyond-might-be-too-expensive/#comment-27194 Sean, Are you familiar with the Dark Energy Survey (DES)? The DES will make use of an existing telescope (albeit with a sophisticated new camera) to bring down the cost. More information regarding this survey can be found at: https://www.darkenergysurvey.org/ Have you heard anything about the funding prospects for DES? The DES website says funding is still pending, but I wonder what are the chances of even this relatively inexpensive science mission seeing fruition in the age of physical science budget axing. With Beyond Einstein looking tenuous the non-CMB cosmological probes would basically stop progressing once SDSS II and other ground based supernovae searches end. Also, from the looks of the Town Meeting transcript it seems like the astro-physics community will have to be satisfied for a significant while with the Planck Surveyor and WMAP 8 year data sets. Sorry folks, CMBPOL isn't on the horizon. I have written my state representatives to tell them to support the Beyond Einstein program although I wonder if the public was informed of these missions it might result in a Hubble-effect. The people put pressure on NASA to fund the HST servicing mission. Sean,

Are you familiar with the Dark Energy Survey (DES)? The DES will make use of an existing telescope (albeit with a sophisticated new camera) to bring down the cost. More information regarding this survey can be found at: https://www.darkenergysurvey.org/

Have you heard anything about the funding prospects for DES? The DES website says funding is still pending, but I wonder what are the chances of even this relatively inexpensive science mission seeing fruition in the age of physical science budget axing. With Beyond Einstein looking tenuous the non-CMB cosmological probes would basically stop progressing once SDSS II and other ground based supernovae searches end. Also, from the looks of the Town Meeting transcript it seems like the astro-physics community will have to be satisfied for a significant while with the Planck Surveyor and WMAP 8 year data sets. Sorry folks, CMBPOL isn’t on the horizon.

I have written my state representatives to tell them to support the Beyond Einstein program although I wonder if the public was informed of these missions it might result in a Hubble-effect. The people put pressure on NASA to fund the HST servicing mission.

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