47 Comments on “Knitting is a Guy Thing”   rss feed

1. Manas Shaikh on Feb 1st, 2007 at 5:57 am

   It all started when people started farming. Men would farm (simply because they had far more strength to spare) and women will handle household.

   Have we evolved from that time that men have become good at ‘manly works’ and women in ‘womanly works’?

   I am not an biology expert. I don’t know whether evolution is that fast.

2. Manas Shaikh on Feb 1st, 2007 at 5:58 am

   It all started when people started farming. Men would farm (simply because they had far more strength to spare) and women will handle household.

   Have we evolved from that time that men have become good at ‘manly works’ and women in ‘womanly works’?

   I am not a biology expert. I don’t know whether evolution is that fast.

3. Joe Fitzsimons on Feb 1st, 2007 at 6:38 am

   Hi Julianne,

   I was hoping you could answer a quick question with regards to discrimination in physics. Clearly there is some, but it is equally as clear that not every man is discriminatory, as Sean is a perfect example. That said, in your experience have you found a higher proportion of sexism in different age groups than others, or is it fairly evenly distributed?

4. Anna Davour on Feb 1st, 2007 at 6:44 am

   I like this analogy. It helps illuminate the role of groups and identifying with groups. I read about an experiment where math ability was tested in girls. It turns out that girls make lower scores on the test if they are told before that women are on average not as good as men at maths. Taking it one step further, it seems that a difference is seen if you just remind them that they are girls by making them filling out a form with an entry for gender (i e without saying anything about the possible implications). This is how little it takes, because girls know that they are not supposed to like these subjects. If you identify yourself with a group that contains a stereotype of not being good at maths this will affect your results. Remarkable.

5. Z on Feb 1st, 2007 at 6:47 am

   Of course knitting is a guy thing. Men invented string theory, after all.

6. moonfall on Feb 1st, 2007 at 6:50 am

   I see where you’re going with this, and you’re not wrong, but I think it’s a bad analogy. The women I know who knit do so not only while talking, but also while watching TVs and movies. I can’t split my attention that way (I’ve tried), while it seems many women can.

7. ack on Feb 1st, 2007 at 10:11 am

   #2: How do you reconcile that view with the fact that in many cultures—American Indians, for example—farming was viewed as women’s work?

   #6: I think the ability to knit while doing other things is more heavily dependant on how long one has been doing it. It took me about a year of sporadic knitting to be able to watch a movie (and remember what it was about!) while doing so, which is about average for both the men and women (and others) I know who knit. I still can’t knit intricate patterns while doing something else. And by the way? I’m a guy.

8. loonunit on Feb 1st, 2007 at 10:41 am

   It all started when people started farming. Men would farm (simply because they had far more strength to spare) and women will handle household.Have we evolved from that time that men have become good at ‘manly works’ and women in ‘womanly works’? I am not an biology expert. I don’t know whether evolution is that fast.

   Hi Manas,

   I’m not a biology expert either. But what does handling heavy farm implements have to do with doing math?

9. loonunit on Feb 1st, 2007 at 10:44 am

   Also, to second #7, last time I checked women did the farming, in many cultures. Maybe even most cultures? Men hunted big game, often largely as bonding ritual, and went to war, and that seems to be an almost exclusively male thing. But women were the primary bread winners, as they brought most of the calories–in many regions of the world most of the protein, as well.

   The division of labor is highly flexible.

   In fact, one of the outstanding features of the human race is that we are FLEXIBLE, and so able to trade roles whenever environment or circumstances demand. Men sometimes had to pick up childcare in the absence of women; women sometimes had to pick up defending themselves in the absence of men.

10. loonunit on Feb 1st, 2007 at 10:46 am

    Julianne,

    The problem with the knitting analogy is that most men believe they are perfectly capable of knitting–they simply look down on it as women’s work.

    Whereas most women do not believe they are capable of physics. Sometimes even in spite of their own grades and test scores.

11. Elliot on Feb 1st, 2007 at 10:56 am

    The simple fact is that knitting appears to me to be one of the most boring activities imaginable. Obviously there is no gender evolutionary constraint on finger control, patience and artistic vision as exemplified by the fact that the majority of great guitar players are male.

    The only way young men would get interested in knitting would be if they believed it would help them meet girls.

    I understand the point you are trying to make but the analogy is strained. By the way welcome aboard.

    Elliot

12. assman on Feb 1st, 2007 at 11:02 am

    Good question. Why don’t men knit? Its because we don’t want to. We don’t enjoy it. We don’t find it interesting. That is not to say there aren’t some good reason for us to knit: namely women seem to like it so kniting is a way of meeting them. I also don’t really enjoy cooking either or dancing.

    >>”Or, is it that a man who knits will spend all his free time engaged in a pastime of no interest to practically every other man he knows? That almost all the people he can turn to discuss his ideas and knowledge with will be women?”

    I think you have things completely backwards. I always wished there were more women in sciences, physics and math (especially attractive ones) so I could talk to them about it instead of always having to converse about television, movies, film, fashions or the artsy/social science stuff they were interested in. Plus men don’t need to talk about what we do with other men because we always have some other common interests like FPS games, sports, politics, women, dirty talk etc.

13. Kristin on Feb 1st, 2007 at 11:14 am

    If people can’t get enough of women in science, there’s several essays about the topic (including my own about getting into and then getting out of physics) in the new anthology She’s Such a Geek!. Yes, this is a shameless plug.

    By the way, anyone who lives in the San Francisco Bay Area, there’s a reading tonight at 7 pm at Modern Times bookstore, 888 Valencia. Tonight will be more science-themed. Last week’s reading at City Lights was a geeky lovefest, so I hope tonight’s turns out to be the same!

14. Trackback from Andrew Jaffe: Leaves on the Line on Feb 1st, 2007 at 11:29 am

    Science In, On and Around the Media

    Neil Tyson of New York’s Museum of Natural History had an excellent appearance on The Daily Show where he reminds us that “Astrophysicists are a simple people”. John Stewart flipped between slack-jawed incomprehension and good jokes. …

15. Scott on Feb 1st, 2007 at 11:37 am

    I say more power to both men and women who want to pursue physics careers and knitting ( I say follow your passion, regardless of sex). By the way, I can’t knit and probably the vast majority of men and women who post here know more about physics than I do–I’m just an interested layman.

16. Eugene on Feb 1st, 2007 at 12:16 pm

    I see your point that you are trying to make, but I think nursing would be a better case study though. Why aren’t there more male nurses, and why are all the important positions in nursing held by females?

17. Jess on Feb 1st, 2007 at 12:41 pm

    ‘The problem with the knitting analogy is that most men believe they are perfectly capable of knitting–they simply look down on it as women’s work.’

    If we’re talking about stereotypes, why are ‘most men’ not interested in knitting, but more interested in, say, carpentry? I have experience of both, and it seems to me they involve similar levels of acquiring some basic skills, then getting more creative as you progress, with the satisfaction of having created something at the end of the day. I can only think that society has pigeon-holed one hobby as women’s work and the other as men’s.

18. loonunit on Feb 1st, 2007 at 1:20 pm

    Again with carpentry: many women I know will not do it because they feel they can’t. The “can’t” there is a lot more flexible than with physics, and if you poke at it you will find that it’s basically a “don’t want to, it’s boring manual labor”… but again, the men started with that premise about the knitting.

    I agree, Jess, that it is society that has done the pigeon-holing. But I guess I would like to add that part of that pigeon-holing isn’t just a division of labor and an unspoken agreement that the opposite gender’s hobbies/professions are “boring”; for women, there is the additional unconscious suggestion that they won’t be any good at it. Because they are women. But it floats to the surface as “I, personally, can’t do physics/carpentry.”

    Whereas men are perhaps left with the impression that they are expected to be able to do anything. And so become very good at feigning competence even where there is none.

    Which has its own perils.

19. Pingback from Why so few women scientists? « Later On on Feb 1st, 2007 at 1:38 pm

    [...] Posted in Science, Daily life at 10:38 am by LeisureGuy Because evolution made males more scientific? Here’s a better explanation: [...]

20. Lauren Gunderson on Feb 1st, 2007 at 1:52 pm

    This rocks. Whats a fantastic description. I am so pleased to know that at least your department is representative.

21. The AstroDyke on Feb 1st, 2007 at 2:05 pm

    Great post, Julianne.
    Just to throw a monkey-wrench:
    Historically, knitting was the Manly handicraft. Trade guilds were male-only, and sailors knitted constantly to make new warm sweaters for the long cold passages. The invention of knitting machines reduced the economic importance of knitting, which then moved into the women’s sphere.

    So just as cultural/economic shifts changed farming from women’s to men’s work (thanks ack & loonunit), knitting shifted from men’s work to women’s.

    Which makes it funny to imagine a future cultural shift in which men devalue physics, such that it becomes women’s work? After all, sitting quietly, thinking, soldering, writing equations — tasks clearly suited for our frailer bodies….

22. Elliot on Feb 1st, 2007 at 2:06 pm

    I dunno this might be a case of “knit”picking

    

23. Allyson on Feb 1st, 2007 at 2:37 pm

    I think maybe Russell Crowe begs to differ with some of the CV boys.

    Hum.In.A.

24. JoAnne on Feb 1st, 2007 at 2:46 pm

    Joe Fitzsimons: It has been my experience that the sexism displayed towards me was most prevalent early on in my career, and at the time, it was fairly evenly distributed between all age groups. My peers - fellow undergrads, grad students, post-docs, junior faculty - were just as likely to display blatent sexism as the old white-haired men. It has slacked off now, because honestly, what can folks say at this point? Some day I’m going to collect all the stories - some of them still cause me pain.

    I have hope that such sexism will slowly die out with each new generation. One sign this may be happening is that I have no trouble attacting eager young grad students, male and female alike, to my group.

25. Mark Van Cleve on Feb 1st, 2007 at 3:06 pm

    We lack the patience.

26. beta male on Feb 1st, 2007 at 3:41 pm

    Knitting is actually a very bad example. From Wikipedia:

    “The first knitting trade guild was started in Paris in 1527, establishing the occupation as male-dominated for centuries to come. ”

    And please don’t tell me I shouldn’t rely on Wiki for information like that.

27. invcit on Feb 1st, 2007 at 4:30 pm

    Forgive me if I’m wrong, but isn’t this a scientific question that ultimately can’t be settled by just an, admittedly nice, analogy?

28. DeadHorse on Feb 1st, 2007 at 6:56 pm

    “Ok, I need to get involved in another CV fracas about women in science right now like I need a hole in the head, ”

    What? You mean this subject has been discussed on CV before? Really? Wow.

29. ier on Feb 1st, 2007 at 9:30 pm

    Why does the fact that knitting was once male-dominated and is now female-dominated make it a bad example? Here and now it is female dominated, so the analogy still works. Additionally it highlights very nicely that what is a male and what is a female occupation is culturally determined, which is the point.

    You know, DeadHorse, the easiest way to stop this discussion is to make it unecessary. So you should try to get personally involved in ending biases and making science more welcoming for women and minorities.

    Invcit: It is pretty clear that there are no innate differences in capability that would explain the huge procentual difference between the number of women and men in physics. Check some of Seans older posts for references on that.

    I’m mostly writing to thank you Julianne and also Sean for bringing this topic up over and over again, it really makes me happy to see that there are people who care about these things. (Even though the comments often are depressing)

30. Joe Fitzsimons on Feb 1st, 2007 at 9:37 pm

    Thanks for the reply Joanne.

    To be honest, I had secretly thought that it would be more prevalent amongan older generation, and that it would slowly die out. I tend to notice it more in older people, but that said I’m male and so probably only notice a small fraction of what goes on.

31. Katey on Feb 2nd, 2007 at 5:33 am

    Hi JoAnne & Joe,

    I actually found it to be worst with fellow undergrads and then slowly tapering off (though never all the way down to zero). I’m still in the grad student stage, so I’ll let you know if that changes in 5-7 years!

32. Pingback from Dadblog » Why active discrimation in education matters on Feb 2nd, 2007 at 7:39 am

    [...] If you’re ever conflicted on the matter of actively discrimating in education to encourage participation by non-participating groups, be they women or black boys or whatever, read Knitting is a Guy Thing on Cosmic Variance: As a female scientist, I explain my situation to my male peers with the following analogy: Why don’t more men knit? Is it that evolution has denied most men the finger control, patience, and artistic vision needed to knit? Or, is it that a man who knits will spend all his free time engaged in a pastime of no interest to practically every other man he knows? [...]

33. cynic on Feb 2nd, 2007 at 7:41 am

    Most knitting is done by machines; creative knitwear design is a different matter. For what it’s worth this seems to be a man’s world, old guard Missoni, hyper-cool techno Issey Miyake, fag hag chic Julien McDonald etc., though Clare Tough (the Witten of ‘nitt’n') and others are now flying the sisters’ flag.

34. Arun on Feb 2nd, 2007 at 8:27 am

    The shift of knitting in Europe from men to women makes the analogy perfect. “Men’s work” and “Women’s work” is largely determined by culture. It would be great to have a world where anyone can work at whatever he or she wants to without the barrier of gender-determinism.

35. Jack on Feb 2nd, 2007 at 8:58 am

    Deadhorse said: “What? You mean this subject has been discussed on CV before? Really? Wow. ”

    Well, that’s the thing about flogging dead horses: it doesn’t really get the horse going, but it does make such a nice self-righteous noise.

36. David on Feb 3rd, 2007 at 12:20 am

    Well, I don’t knit because I’m intimidated by all the women who do it well. Seriously, show up at any UW astro colloquium and there will be a cadre of female grad students knitting beautifully. How can I compete? (For the record, I did crochet as a little kid, and then I discovered books and soccer.)

    Just to totally ignore the larger point

37. Quasar9 on Feb 3rd, 2007 at 6:52 am

    Hi Julianne, I gather few girls
    whether undergrads, graduates or non grads
    take up knitting nowdays.
    Alas, cheaper to buy knitwear from China for baby
    or ‘grandchild’ than to knit one.
    It is not that men cannot knit, it is a question of time - work down the coal mine and play football at weekends - or housekeep, cook and rear children.

    PS - I notice few women wash by hand nowdays, they use washing machines designed by men.
    Ok, ok men and women nowdays design bio-detergents that can wash whites ‘whiter than white’ or colours without colours fading.
    But I guess even with multitasking we cannot do everything, we either do physics - particle physics or astrophysics, - chemistry or biology. We either do medicine, - surgery or pharmacy, - we either play soccer or american football, we either play grass hockey or ice hockey, we either play lawn tennis or non-lawn tennis, we either drive a car or catch a bus … we either paint, write poetry, create computer games or throw pots
    and yes, sometimes we have multi discipline interests

38. astropixie on Feb 3rd, 2007 at 1:33 pm

    thought this was a pretty funny headline today…

    Oscar Nominee Gosling Knits the Stress Away

39. Belizean on Feb 3rd, 2007 at 9:38 pm

    JoAnne wrote:

    My peers - fellow undergrads, grad students, post-docs, junior faculty - were just as likely to display blatent sexism as the old white-haired men…. Some day I’m going to collect all the stories - some of them still cause me pain.

    In lieu of a collection of stories, it would really be nice if you would some day give us a top ten list of the sorts of sexist behaviors you’ve experience or observed in physics departments. I cannot honestly say that I’ve personally observed such behavior, despite having spent a good chunk of my life in physics departments. I’m sure that much of the invisibility of the offensive behavior results from its being a private interaction between the offender and the victim. But still, I would have expected to have noticed something.

    Things I’ve never known to happen in the physics departments in which I’ve worked or studied (but might nonetheless have been occurring behind closed doors):

    1. Male demands sexual favors as price of advancing or not harming the career of female subordinate.

    2. Male informs female that her sex limits her capacity to do physics.

    3. Males hire or advance males with inferior qualifications to female candidates.

    4. Males insult female with frequent remarks about her physique, gratuitous requests for sexual favors, or other comments intended to demean her.

    The reason that I’m interested in specifics is that I’ve also been repeatedly told that there is racial discrimination in academia. Yet, as a racial minority, I’ve personally noticed none of it. Nor have family members in my generation (although older family members have plenty of discrimination stories).

    The problem might be that I’m too socially dense to notice discrimination against others or even that against me.

40. Charles T on Feb 4th, 2007 at 12:06 pm

    It seems that New Scientist isn’t above a bit of sexist stereotyping either. Fr example, this piece of editorial from 27th Jan on the WHO attempts to eradicate polio.

    In the past, the WHO would probably have done the macho thing and thrown more money at the problem while issuing stirring slogans about victory. Margaret Chan, the new WHO director, is made of wiser stuff. “Can we really do this?” she asked this week. “What will it take?”

    I presume that sauce for the goose is also sauce for the gander?

41. Lindsay Beyerstein on Feb 4th, 2007 at 7:55 pm

    The New Scientist didn’t say that the WHO would have done the “masculine thing,” or the “male-typical thing.” That would have been sexist.

    Describing a policy as “macho” isn’t sexist. Not all men are macho. Most of the people who buy into to the cult of machismo are men, but that’s neither here nor there.

42. JoAnne on Feb 4th, 2007 at 8:26 pm

    Belizean: Since you asked, I’ve experienced #2-4 on your list, but not #1.

43. macho on Feb 5th, 2007 at 12:10 am

    Although I think the most pervasive and damaging gender biases at work today are more subtle than those on Belizean’s list, I have also observed first-hand #2-4. One close female friend in graduate school left physics in large part because of #4, although she tried very hard to ignore or laugh-off what was almost a constant stream of nasty comments.

44. Deborah on Feb 6th, 2007 at 5:47 pm

    Hmmm. I am a nurse (for 36 years!). I became a nurse because my Aunt Edith (a nurse in the Marine Corp in WWII) was a great role model. I loved and admired her and wanted to be just like her (I was 5 or 6 years old - but it had a lasting effect). I learned to KNIT about the same time, because my UNCLE Lloyd, a caterpillar tractor driver, was the coolest guy I knew and he knit like a fiend! He was a big man, with enormous fingers (remember - I was 5 or 6 at the time) and he would sit on my grandmothers porch after work, on the 2 seater swing and knit. The joke in the neighborhood was: “What do you say when you see a man knitting?” Answer: “Evening Lloyd!”. Implication: if a guy that big wants to sit on a porch and knit - who am I to argue? My point: children often model themselves, or at least are influenced by, the adults that they most admire. I am still a nurse, and I still knit and I am greatful to the role models in MY life!

45. Peter Coles on Feb 11th, 2007 at 6:07 pm

    Rubbish. Knitting is for girls. Real men do crochet.

46. Pingback from Manly, Sciencey Manliness | Cosmic Variance on Mar 21st, 2007 at 11:36 pm

    [...] I’m not sure I’m going far enough, though. Perhaps I should start wearing more floral prints, or take up knitting. [...]

47. Guido From Boston on Apr 2nd, 2007 at 6:16 pm

    >Why don’t more men knit?

    >Is it that evolution has denied most men the finger control, patience, and artistic vision needed to knit?

    In one word, Kaffe Fasset…

    >Or, is it that a man who knits will spend all his free time engaged in a pastime of no interest to practically every other man he knows?

    It is somewhat lonely as a male knitter, but there are all those other women to talk to, nothing wrong with that.

    >That almost all the people he can turn to discuss his ideas and knowledge with will be women?

    No, my women friends and I don’t always agree on all things, but it’s ok to varying opinions

    >Now suppose that knitting took years of advanced training, beginning in high school. How many teenage boys do you think would be eager to enroll in knitting classes? How long would it take for those young men’s skills to be viewed and judged neutrally, rather than being praised as “remarkably good knitting for a man”?

    It does take years of experience to be good at it. Men get praised for knitting things like other novelties, check out the new book on knitting for men and dogs by annie modesett

    >How would they feel being one of very few men at every knitting workshop and conference they attended? Would others at the conference assume they were there as the spouse of a “real” knitter? Would anyone think to go to them for expertise unless they’d spent years proving that they were the Best Knitter Ever?

    Actually, at knitting events men are treated like spouses and sometimes knitting events will shut down men’s bathrooms and turn them into women’s bathrooms without giving any guidance to where they can relieve themselves.

    >And yes, we have a number of men in our department who knit. You gotta problem with that?

    No

    I hear you though, it’s all about equality. Everyone should be judged on the merits of their work, whether it be science or knitting. People should foster others careers/craft equally. But, the realities are what they are, and with every generation there will be a struggle, and things will change… but only in time…

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