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	<title>Comments on: The Theocracy Moves Ahead</title>
	<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2006/10/01/the-theocracy-moves-ahead/</link>
	<description>Random samplings from a universe of ideas.</description>
	<pubDate>Fri, 05 Dec 2008 04:51:14 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>By: heraclitus</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2006/10/01/the-theocracy-moves-ahead/#comment-20807</link>
		<dc:creator>heraclitus</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 08 Oct 2006 17:55:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2006/10/01/the-theocracy-moves-ahead/#comment-20807</guid>
		<description>It is the duty of the citizen to point out to the Government when it falls into error.
Too few of them know that hiring an attorney is an admission of incompetence.  (see corpus juris secundum for more.)
You may be able to find square roots and intervals and such, but that does not translate into competence as a Person in court.

If scientists wanted to be immediately useful, they would in unison publicly withdraw their labor from Government work until specific humane and generous provisions for questioning detention are written into law.
As humane and generous are unscientific terms, I suggest they refer to the ethics of plain gospel Christianity for a standard.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It is the duty of the citizen to point out to the Government when it falls into error.<br />
Too few of them know that hiring an attorney is an admission of incompetence.  (see corpus juris secundum for more.)<br />
You may be able to find square roots and intervals and such, but that does not translate into competence as a Person in court.</p>
<p>If scientists wanted to be immediately useful, they would in unison publicly withdraw their labor from Government work until specific humane and generous provisions for questioning detention are written into law.<br />
As humane and generous are unscientific terms, I suggest they refer to the ethics of plain gospel Christianity for a standard.</p>
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		<title>By: Mark</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2006/10/01/the-theocracy-moves-ahead/#comment-20805</link>
		<dc:creator>Mark</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 05 Oct 2006 03:06:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2006/10/01/the-theocracy-moves-ahead/#comment-20805</guid>
		<description>Thanks Fermi and kim - I'm staying essentially on Lygon St. and am already trying great places.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks Fermi and kim - I&#8217;m staying essentially on Lygon St. and am already trying great places.</p>
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		<title>By: the amazing kim</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2006/10/01/the-theocracy-moves-ahead/#comment-20809</link>
		<dc:creator>the amazing kim</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 04 Oct 2006 17:06:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2006/10/01/the-theocracy-moves-ahead/#comment-20809</guid>
		<description>Ah, Melbourne. Try Koko Black in Lygon Street (5 minutes walk from uni), or the food co-op on the third floor of Union House. While you're in Lygon, why not stop at the Original Lolly Shop, or Brunetti's. Outside the uni, Borscht, Vodka and Tears in Windsor is always good, or Polly bar in Brunswick street, or the Butterfly Club in South Melbourne. All good places to visit. Anyway, enjoy your stay.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ah, Melbourne. Try Koko Black in Lygon Street (5 minutes walk from uni), or the food co-op on the third floor of Union House. While you&#8217;re in Lygon, why not stop at the Original Lolly Shop, or Brunetti&#8217;s. Outside the uni, Borscht, Vodka and Tears in Windsor is always good, or Polly bar in Brunswick street, or the Butterfly Club in South Melbourne. All good places to visit. Anyway, enjoy your stay.</p>
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		<title>By: Joseph Hertzlinger</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2006/10/01/the-theocracy-moves-ahead/#comment-20810</link>
		<dc:creator>Joseph Hertzlinger</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 04 Oct 2006 14:39:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2006/10/01/the-theocracy-moves-ahead/#comment-20810</guid>
		<description>Should there be a law awarding attorney's fees in lawsuits involving unconstitutional breaches of property rights?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Should there be a law awarding attorney&#8217;s fees in lawsuits involving unconstitutional breaches of property rights?</p>
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		<title>By: Ann</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2006/10/01/the-theocracy-moves-ahead/#comment-20808</link>
		<dc:creator>Ann</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 03 Oct 2006 20:04:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2006/10/01/the-theocracy-moves-ahead/#comment-20808</guid>
		<description>The statute abolishing awards of attorney fees in establishment cases is news to me, but it seems reasonable.   There are two parts of the First Amendment that refer to religion, the anti-establishment clause and the non-interference clause: "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof."    The anti-establishment clause originally referred only to not creating an established state religion such as existed in England and most other European countries (and still does in many).

When the Bill of Rights was adopted, it only applied to the federal government, and the federal government had very little involvement in citizens' daily lives.  Education, land use regulation, economic regulation, almost all criminal law, all domestic relations law, all these were either not governmental functions at all or were exclusively state or local government functions.

With the Fourteenth Amendment's expansion to the states of Bill of Rights limitations, the growing role of government in daily life during the last century, and the expansive interpretation of the establishment clause in the last few decades, it seems to me there is a high risk that the two religion clauses of the First Amendment will sometimes be in conflict - that people who work for the government or participate in governmental programs or government-funded programs will find their free exercise of religion restricted by the anti-establishment clause.   Are a couple of public school teachers who are monitoring a school cafeteria free to say grace out loud over their lunch?  What about if students nearby can hear them?    If they do it, they may be 'establishing' a religion and if they are prohibited from doing it, their free exercise of religion may be  suppressed.   Both are unconstitutional.

A large school district can absorb the cost of occasional litigation of establishment clause cases, but many school districts can't, and are going to find their ability to meet the educational needs of their districts compromised if their superintendent, principals and teachers, none of whom are probably trained constitutional scholars, guess wrong on what a Court might ultimately hold to be an 'establishment' of religion.  Considering that even constitutional scholars can differ on the issue, it isn't always easy to know what is an establishment and what isn't.

I don't think that abolishing the right of attorney fee recovery is likely to bring about a 'theocracy.'  The right has only existed for a relatively small part of our country's history and we weren't a theocracy before it was created.

By the way, attorney fee clauses are often applied unevenly.  In some states (or maybe all), a government agency or individual suing to collect child support has an absolute right to recover attorney fees if successful, but the alleged debtor is not entitled to recover attorney fees even if it turns out nothing was owed?

A far more serious threat to religious freedom now is in media self-censorship, college speech codes and the like, and in tolerance of threats or violence in furtherance of an 'insult-free' climate for selected religions.  Consider this quote from an article in the New York Daily News on October 1, 2006, entitled "Bobblehead Muhammed?" about a dashboard figuring depicting Islam's prophet Mohammed in headgear that included a bomb with a lit fuse.

&lt;blockquote&gt;No depiction of the prophet, even if it is positive, should be made ever - and certainly not one as ridiculous as the bobblehead Muhammed," said Zvi Ben-Dor Benite, an assistant professor at New York University. "I don't think it's about freedom of speech. This is the freedom to insult, which he shouldn't be doing.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

Just try to find a major American newspaper with a photo of that figurine, or of the Danish cartoons of last year.   They will be few and far between, not out of respect for religion -they aren't afraid to run cartoons, photos or stories insulting to Christians  - but out of fear.   It doesn't always take government action to diminish religious freedom.

As an atheist, I'm frankly a lot more worried about being threatened with decapitation if I insult Islam than I am with obsessively rooting out every last vestige of Christianity in our public schools.  I'd rather be the only atheist in a Catholic school in the 1960s (as I was in the ninth grade) than a college student today trying to have a reasonable classroom discussion about the role of religion in Middle Eastern conflicts.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The statute abolishing awards of attorney fees in establishment cases is news to me, but it seems reasonable.   There are two parts of the First Amendment that refer to religion, the anti-establishment clause and the non-interference clause: &#8220;Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof.&#8221;    The anti-establishment clause originally referred only to not creating an established state religion such as existed in England and most other European countries (and still does in many).</p>
<p>When the Bill of Rights was adopted, it only applied to the federal government, and the federal government had very little involvement in citizens&#8217; daily lives.  Education, land use regulation, economic regulation, almost all criminal law, all domestic relations law, all these were either not governmental functions at all or were exclusively state or local government functions.</p>
<p>With the Fourteenth Amendment&#8217;s expansion to the states of Bill of Rights limitations, the growing role of government in daily life during the last century, and the expansive interpretation of the establishment clause in the last few decades, it seems to me there is a high risk that the two religion clauses of the First Amendment will sometimes be in conflict - that people who work for the government or participate in governmental programs or government-funded programs will find their free exercise of religion restricted by the anti-establishment clause.   Are a couple of public school teachers who are monitoring a school cafeteria free to say grace out loud over their lunch?  What about if students nearby can hear them?    If they do it, they may be &#8216;establishing&#8217; a religion and if they are prohibited from doing it, their free exercise of religion may be  suppressed.   Both are unconstitutional.</p>
<p>A large school district can absorb the cost of occasional litigation of establishment clause cases, but many school districts can&#8217;t, and are going to find their ability to meet the educational needs of their districts compromised if their superintendent, principals and teachers, none of whom are probably trained constitutional scholars, guess wrong on what a Court might ultimately hold to be an &#8216;establishment&#8217; of religion.  Considering that even constitutional scholars can differ on the issue, it isn&#8217;t always easy to know what is an establishment and what isn&#8217;t.</p>
<p>I don&#8217;t think that abolishing the right of attorney fee recovery is likely to bring about a &#8216;theocracy.&#8217;  The right has only existed for a relatively small part of our country&#8217;s history and we weren&#8217;t a theocracy before it was created.</p>
<p>By the way, attorney fee clauses are often applied unevenly.  In some states (or maybe all), a government agency or individual suing to collect child support has an absolute right to recover attorney fees if successful, but the alleged debtor is not entitled to recover attorney fees even if it turns out nothing was owed?</p>
<p>A far more serious threat to religious freedom now is in media self-censorship, college speech codes and the like, and in tolerance of threats or violence in furtherance of an &#8216;insult-free&#8217; climate for selected religions.  Consider this quote from an article in the New York Daily News on October 1, 2006, entitled &#8220;Bobblehead Muhammed?&#8221; about a dashboard figuring depicting Islam&#8217;s prophet Mohammed in headgear that included a bomb with a lit fuse.</p>
<blockquote><p>No depiction of the prophet, even if it is positive, should be made ever - and certainly not one as ridiculous as the bobblehead Muhammed,&#8221; said Zvi Ben-Dor Benite, an assistant professor at New York University. &#8220;I don&#8217;t think it&#8217;s about freedom of speech. This is the freedom to insult, which he shouldn&#8217;t be doing.</p></blockquote>
<p>Just try to find a major American newspaper with a photo of that figurine, or of the Danish cartoons of last year.   They will be few and far between, not out of respect for religion -they aren&#8217;t afraid to run cartoons, photos or stories insulting to Christians  - but out of fear.   It doesn&#8217;t always take government action to diminish religious freedom.</p>
<p>As an atheist, I&#8217;m frankly a lot more worried about being threatened with decapitation if I insult Islam than I am with obsessively rooting out every last vestige of Christianity in our public schools.  I&#8217;d rather be the only atheist in a Catholic school in the 1960s (as I was in the ninth grade) than a college student today trying to have a reasonable classroom discussion about the role of religion in Middle Eastern conflicts.</p>
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		<title>By: Fermi Walker Public Transport</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2006/10/01/the-theocracy-moves-ahead/#comment-20811</link>
		<dc:creator>Fermi Walker Public Transport</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 03 Oct 2006 12:54:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2006/10/01/the-theocracy-moves-ahead/#comment-20811</guid>
		<description>Great resturants on Lygon Street and be sure to vist St. Kilda region</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Great resturants on Lygon Street and be sure to vist St. Kilda region</p>
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		<title>By: Aaron</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2006/10/01/the-theocracy-moves-ahead/#comment-20812</link>
		<dc:creator>Aaron</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 03 Oct 2006 05:10:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2006/10/01/the-theocracy-moves-ahead/#comment-20812</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;At least you'd be able to answer the last question correctly.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

Ooops... or not. I had you completely mistaken for someone else. X-P Sorry bout that!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>At least you&#8217;d be able to answer the last question correctly.</p></blockquote>
<p>Ooops&#8230; or not. I had you completely mistaken for someone else. X-P Sorry bout that!</p>
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		<title>By: neoleo</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2006/10/01/the-theocracy-moves-ahead/#comment-20806</link>
		<dc:creator>neoleo</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 02 Oct 2006 16:38:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2006/10/01/the-theocracy-moves-ahead/#comment-20806</guid>
		<description>Dear Mark,

You are most welcome in Australia as 'Babe in the Universe' says. However you may find the land of Oz uncomfortably familiar. Legislation and the enforcement of it has taken some weird turns over the past few years and much of your concerns are shared by many of the locals.

A great country to visit! Even greater to leave again in one piece, as Charles Darwin astutely concluded about 170 years ago...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Dear Mark,</p>
<p>You are most welcome in Australia as &#8216;Babe in the Universe&#8217; says. However you may find the land of Oz uncomfortably familiar. Legislation and the enforcement of it has taken some weird turns over the past few years and much of your concerns are shared by many of the locals.</p>
<p>A great country to visit! Even greater to leave again in one piece, as Charles Darwin astutely concluded about 170 years ago&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: Critter Proof &#124; Cosmic Variance</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2006/10/01/the-theocracy-moves-ahead/#comment-20814</link>
		<dc:creator>Critter Proof &#124; Cosmic Variance</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 02 Oct 2006 01:43:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2006/10/01/the-theocracy-moves-ahead/#comment-20814</guid>
		<description>[...] Sean       &#171; The Theocracy Moves Ahead &#160;&#160;&#160;&#160; [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[&#8230;] Sean       &laquo; The Theocracy Moves Ahead &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; [&#8230;]</p>
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		<title>By: Spatulated</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2006/10/01/the-theocracy-moves-ahead/#comment-20813</link>
		<dc:creator>Spatulated</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 01 Oct 2006 23:42:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2006/10/01/the-theocracy-moves-ahead/#comment-20813</guid>
		<description>I take zefrank as my personal savior</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I take zefrank as my personal savior</p>
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