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	<title>Comments on: Torture and Permanent Detention Bill Passes</title>
	<atom:link href="http://cosmicvariance.com/2006/09/28/torture-and-permanent-detention-bill-passes/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://cosmicvariance.com/2006/09/28/torture-and-permanent-detention-bill-passes/</link>
	<description>Random samplings from a universe of ideas</description>
	<pubDate>Sun, 07 Sep 2008 20:59:36 +0000</pubDate>
	<generator>http://wordpress.org/?v=2.5.1</generator>
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		<title>By: The Theocracy Moves Ahead &#124; Cosmic Variance</title>
		<link>http://cosmicvariance.com/2006/09/28/torture-and-permanent-detention-bill-passes/#comment-201055</link>
		<dc:creator>The Theocracy Moves Ahead &#124; Cosmic Variance</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 17 Feb 2007 17:19:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cosmicvariance.com/?p=983#comment-201055</guid>
		<description>[...] I hesitate slightly before continuing to write negative things about the government, because you see, I am now classified as someone who, despite paying large amounts in taxes, despite being married to an American, and hence having large numbers of extended family in the U.S., despite working for an American employer, and despite loving my &#8220;Mom&#8221;, enjoying baseball, and being partial to a nice slice of apple pie, can nevertheless be whisked away without a moment&#8217;s notice, and detained indefinitely, having no right to challenge my detention. I can, in essence, be disappeared by my own government. Yes, the passing of S. 3930 - â€œA bill to authorize trial by military commission for violations of the law of war, and for other purposesâ€ - by a 65-34 Senate vote will be judged harshly by history, should there be any of us around to do the judging. [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] I hesitate slightly before continuing to write negative things about the government, because you see, I am now classified as someone who, despite paying large amounts in taxes, despite being married to an American, and hence having large numbers of extended family in the U.S., despite working for an American employer, and despite loving my &#8220;Mom&#8221;, enjoying baseball, and being partial to a nice slice of apple pie, can nevertheless be whisked away without a moment&#8217;s notice, and detained indefinitely, having no right to challenge my detention. I can, in essence, be disappeared by my own government. Yes, the passing of S. 3930 - â€œA bill to authorize trial by military commission for violations of the law of war, and for other purposesâ€ - by a 65-34 Senate vote will be judged harshly by history, should there be any of us around to do the judging. [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Amara</title>
		<link>http://cosmicvariance.com/2006/09/28/torture-and-permanent-detention-bill-passes/#comment-127074</link>
		<dc:creator>Amara</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 24 Oct 2006 00:12:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cosmicvariance.com/?p=983#comment-127074</guid>
		<description>Keith Olberman on &lt;a href="http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/blogs/sfgate/detail?blogid=3&#38;entry_id=10020" rel="nofollow"&gt;The Beginning of the End of America&lt;/a&gt;. Frighteningly good commentary about this topic.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Keith Olberman on <a href="http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/blogs/sfgate/detail?blogid=3&amp;entry_id=10020" rel="nofollow">The Beginning of the End of America</a>. Frighteningly good commentary about this topic.</p>
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		<title>By: Hafeez</title>
		<link>http://cosmicvariance.com/2006/09/28/torture-and-permanent-detention-bill-passes/#comment-125620</link>
		<dc:creator>Hafeez</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 19 Oct 2006 08:05:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cosmicvariance.com/?p=983#comment-125620</guid>
		<description>Most of us do not know the history of economics of mankind...Creation of wealth,private property and all value productions were the source of HUMAN LABOUR.The origin of all kind of prosperity was human labour and still it is the same source...Here the criminal Philosopers like PLATO-ARISTOTLE changed the future real human path by Criminaly  creating slavery as just and moral.Human beings the inocents were braught in as slaves by the criminal consciousness to loot the labour of slaves and to deprive them all kind of rights as human being.These were the seeds of future crimes,wars for more human labour,to get more prosperity for more crimes and more wars.The road was set for the criminals to rule the world by criminal force.We will never be able to live like HUMAN BEINGS with out wars with human rights unless we removes the criminality of slavery...HR</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Most of us do not know the history of economics of mankind&#8230;Creation of wealth,private property and all value productions were the source of HUMAN LABOUR.The origin of all kind of prosperity was human labour and still it is the same source&#8230;Here the criminal Philosopers like PLATO-ARISTOTLE changed the future real human path by Criminaly  creating slavery as just and moral.Human beings the inocents were braught in as slaves by the criminal consciousness to loot the labour of slaves and to deprive them all kind of rights as human being.These were the seeds of future crimes,wars for more human labour,to get more prosperity for more crimes and more wars.The road was set for the criminals to rule the world by criminal force.We will never be able to live like HUMAN BEINGS with out wars with human rights unless we removes the criminality of slavery&#8230;HR</p>
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		<title>By: Sam</title>
		<link>http://cosmicvariance.com/2006/09/28/torture-and-permanent-detention-bill-passes/#comment-124904</link>
		<dc:creator>Sam</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 15 Oct 2006 20:47:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cosmicvariance.com/?p=983#comment-124904</guid>
		<description>i thought (R) Sen. John McCain voted against the bill too.  maybe i just heard wrong from somebody.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>i thought (R) Sen. John McCain voted against the bill too.  maybe i just heard wrong from somebody.</p>
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		<title>By: Jim Harrison</title>
		<link>http://cosmicvariance.com/2006/09/28/torture-and-permanent-detention-bill-passes/#comment-123034</link>
		<dc:creator>Jim Harrison</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 04 Oct 2006 03:01:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cosmicvariance.com/?p=983#comment-123034</guid>
		<description>Hey, there's small glory in outstripping donkeys, but it's a living.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hey, there&#8217;s small glory in outstripping donkeys, but it&#8217;s a living.</p>
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		<title>By: Ann</title>
		<link>http://cosmicvariance.com/2006/09/28/torture-and-permanent-detention-bill-passes/#comment-123032</link>
		<dc:creator>Ann</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 04 Oct 2006 02:17:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cosmicvariance.com/?p=983#comment-123032</guid>
		<description>Jim Harrison has given us a good example of why Bush Derangement Syndrome seems a reasonable diagnosis for some people. 

The diagnostic criteria for this Syndrome seem to be:

 - the conviction that no intelligent, informed and rational person outside the Bush Administration could possibly agree with Bush, and that no person inside the Bush Administration holds any honest convictions on the matter of how to deal with terrorism if those convictions conform to Bush policies.  In this sense, the Syndrome shares some features with paranoid personality disorder, although limited to the political context.

- the belief that an assertion of opinion, such as the claim that â€œterrorism tends to be self-limiting unless it wins the support of its erswhile (sic) opponents,â€ if stated in strong enough terms and with enough contempt for skeptics, becomes a fact, and the belief that a prediction of the outcome of a policy has the same logical weight as a fact.   The Syndrome therefore shares some of the characteristics of schizoid personality disorder, notably the tendency toward magical thinking;

- a memory defect that prevents the sufferer from recognizing that President Bushâ€™s last term expires in two years, and that therefore there is no rational basis for believing that Bushâ€™s â€œpolitical fortunes absolutely depend on scaring the wits out of the public.â€  Memory also appears to be affected in other areas, such as the belief that â€œif grown-ups were in charge the radicals in the Middle East would be marginalized in short order,â€ a belief that requires forgetting the history of the current threat since its beginnings in the late 1920s, as well as the history of other regimes such as the Nazis and the Communists, which also offered an overarching ideological framework, a sharp delineation between the pure adherents of the ideology and all others, and an exclusively utilitarian view of the individual human being.

- in an environment where both available choices involve risks, a compulsive need to minimize to the point of insignificance the threats from one choice, â€œWhat the heck do they have to offer to anybody?â€ while exaggerating the threats from the other, Bush, precluding any rational analysis of the choices.   Jim ought to understand one of the things that the Islamists have to offer, since he derives it from his own political beliefs, and that is a certain conviction of oneâ€™s superiority over other people who donâ€™t share oneâ€™s views.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Jim Harrison has given us a good example of why Bush Derangement Syndrome seems a reasonable diagnosis for some people. </p>
<p>The diagnostic criteria for this Syndrome seem to be:</p>
<p> - the conviction that no intelligent, informed and rational person outside the Bush Administration could possibly agree with Bush, and that no person inside the Bush Administration holds any honest convictions on the matter of how to deal with terrorism if those convictions conform to Bush policies.  In this sense, the Syndrome shares some features with paranoid personality disorder, although limited to the political context.</p>
<p>- the belief that an assertion of opinion, such as the claim that â€œterrorism tends to be self-limiting unless it wins the support of its erswhile (sic) opponents,â€ if stated in strong enough terms and with enough contempt for skeptics, becomes a fact, and the belief that a prediction of the outcome of a policy has the same logical weight as a fact.   The Syndrome therefore shares some of the characteristics of schizoid personality disorder, notably the tendency toward magical thinking;</p>
<p>- a memory defect that prevents the sufferer from recognizing that President Bushâ€™s last term expires in two years, and that therefore there is no rational basis for believing that Bushâ€™s â€œpolitical fortunes absolutely depend on scaring the wits out of the public.â€  Memory also appears to be affected in other areas, such as the belief that â€œif grown-ups were in charge the radicals in the Middle East would be marginalized in short order,â€ a belief that requires forgetting the history of the current threat since its beginnings in the late 1920s, as well as the history of other regimes such as the Nazis and the Communists, which also offered an overarching ideological framework, a sharp delineation between the pure adherents of the ideology and all others, and an exclusively utilitarian view of the individual human being.</p>
<p>- in an environment where both available choices involve risks, a compulsive need to minimize to the point of insignificance the threats from one choice, â€œWhat the heck do they have to offer to anybody?â€ while exaggerating the threats from the other, Bush, precluding any rational analysis of the choices.   Jim ought to understand one of the things that the Islamists have to offer, since he derives it from his own political beliefs, and that is a certain conviction of oneâ€™s superiority over other people who donâ€™t share oneâ€™s views.</p>
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		<title>By: Jim Harrison</title>
		<link>http://cosmicvariance.com/2006/09/28/torture-and-permanent-detention-bill-passes/#comment-123019</link>
		<dc:creator>Jim Harrison</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 03 Oct 2006 23:01:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cosmicvariance.com/?p=983#comment-123019</guid>
		<description>Your guess is correct! You are one of those ignorant, stupid, fearful individuals who continue to support Bush. 

Value issues aside, support for the Bush agenda is based on a misunderstanding of the facts. The threat from terrorism is real but entirely managable--terrorism tends to be self limiting unless it wins the tacit support of its erswhile opponents. Bush would have to be nuts to allow a real victory over Islamic terrorism since his political fortunes absolutely depend upon scaring the wits out of the public. If his administration defeats terrorism, it will be by mistake. On the other hand, if grownups were in charge, the radicals in the Middle East would be marginalized in short order. What the heck do they have to offer to anybody?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Your guess is correct! You are one of those ignorant, stupid, fearful individuals who continue to support Bush. </p>
<p>Value issues aside, support for the Bush agenda is based on a misunderstanding of the facts. The threat from terrorism is real but entirely managable&#8211;terrorism tends to be self limiting unless it wins the tacit support of its erswhile opponents. Bush would have to be nuts to allow a real victory over Islamic terrorism since his political fortunes absolutely depend upon scaring the wits out of the public. If his administration defeats terrorism, it will be by mistake. On the other hand, if grownups were in charge, the radicals in the Middle East would be marginalized in short order. What the heck do they have to offer to anybody?</p>
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		<title>By: Ann</title>
		<link>http://cosmicvariance.com/2006/09/28/torture-and-permanent-detention-bill-passes/#comment-123015</link>
		<dc:creator>Ann</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 03 Oct 2006 22:30:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cosmicvariance.com/?p=983#comment-123015</guid>
		<description>Oops!  Last post was incomplete.

Only an ALIEN UNLAWFUL ENEMY COMBATANT is subject to trial by military tribunal.   Could Sean or one of the posters who is opposed to trying such indviduals by military tribunal make clear what their alternative would be?  A criminal trial with full consitutional protections including taxpayer funded defense counsel, Miranda warnings upon capture, and full discovery of all intelligence upon which their capture was based?  

Sorry, folks.  I don't remember Lincoln, Wilson, FDR or Truman granting such rights, so why the Bush hatred for his failure to do so?  

And anyone who is offended by legislation attempting to define torture hasn't read much legislation.  The whole point of a law is to make as clear as possible what it applies to and what it doesn't.  You may think waterboarding or sleep deprivation is torture, even though I've heard both are used in training our own soldiers and new parents are routinely subjected to sleep deprivation, but not everyone would agree with you.  A non-believer touching the Qu'ran with ungloved hands may be torture to some people, while forbidding it might be considered pandering to bigotry by others.  

As for the historical review devoted to addressing whether the United States is good or evil, or overall has acted for good more than for evil, or whatever:   A lot of interesting points are being made, but I am reminded of discussions I have had with suicidal people.  There's a strong underlying premise that if parts of your life really suck, it's not worth living.  A lot of the arguments about Amercia's problems seem more to be justifications for why it should not consider itself worth saving, especially if saving itself entails any unpleasantness.

I guess I am one of those ignorant, stupid, fearful individuals who continue to support Bush.  That's because he's President and he seems to be more interested in making war on Al Qaeda than on Walmart, and he seems to have a plausible though not guaranteed long-term strategy for diminishing their number and appeal to their co-religionists.   I have plenty of complaints about how he's done his job, but they are largely irrelevant because I don't think the alternative I had in the last election, John Kerry, would have done as well, and there were, after all, only two choices. 

In the final analysis, there usually only are two choices - [metaphor alert] drown or come up for air.  When people complain bitterly how the country is going to hell in a handbasket because Bush is engaging in the very mildest versions of actions FDR is still lauded for having taken to extremes, I can't help thinking that drowning is only way we'll satisfy some of them that we are pure enough.  Much like the people who complain about how we squandered all of the world's goodwill by going to war after 9-11.  We could surely have kept that goodwill - if we'd kept on dying.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Oops!  Last post was incomplete.</p>
<p>Only an ALIEN UNLAWFUL ENEMY COMBATANT is subject to trial by military tribunal.   Could Sean or one of the posters who is opposed to trying such indviduals by military tribunal make clear what their alternative would be?  A criminal trial with full consitutional protections including taxpayer funded defense counsel, Miranda warnings upon capture, and full discovery of all intelligence upon which their capture was based?  </p>
<p>Sorry, folks.  I don&#8217;t remember Lincoln, Wilson, FDR or Truman granting such rights, so why the Bush hatred for his failure to do so?  </p>
<p>And anyone who is offended by legislation attempting to define torture hasn&#8217;t read much legislation.  The whole point of a law is to make as clear as possible what it applies to and what it doesn&#8217;t.  You may think waterboarding or sleep deprivation is torture, even though I&#8217;ve heard both are used in training our own soldiers and new parents are routinely subjected to sleep deprivation, but not everyone would agree with you.  A non-believer touching the Qu&#8217;ran with ungloved hands may be torture to some people, while forbidding it might be considered pandering to bigotry by others.  </p>
<p>As for the historical review devoted to addressing whether the United States is good or evil, or overall has acted for good more than for evil, or whatever:   A lot of interesting points are being made, but I am reminded of discussions I have had with suicidal people.  There&#8217;s a strong underlying premise that if parts of your life really suck, it&#8217;s not worth living.  A lot of the arguments about Amercia&#8217;s problems seem more to be justifications for why it should not consider itself worth saving, especially if saving itself entails any unpleasantness.</p>
<p>I guess I am one of those ignorant, stupid, fearful individuals who continue to support Bush.  That&#8217;s because he&#8217;s President and he seems to be more interested in making war on Al Qaeda than on Walmart, and he seems to have a plausible though not guaranteed long-term strategy for diminishing their number and appeal to their co-religionists.   I have plenty of complaints about how he&#8217;s done his job, but they are largely irrelevant because I don&#8217;t think the alternative I had in the last election, John Kerry, would have done as well, and there were, after all, only two choices. </p>
<p>In the final analysis, there usually only are two choices - [metaphor alert] drown or come up for air.  When people complain bitterly how the country is going to hell in a handbasket because Bush is engaging in the very mildest versions of actions FDR is still lauded for having taken to extremes, I can&#8217;t help thinking that drowning is only way we&#8217;ll satisfy some of them that we are pure enough.  Much like the people who complain about how we squandered all of the world&#8217;s goodwill by going to war after 9-11.  We could surely have kept that goodwill - if we&#8217;d kept on dying.</p>
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		<title>By: Ann</title>
		<link>http://cosmicvariance.com/2006/09/28/torture-and-permanent-detention-bill-passes/#comment-123012</link>
		<dc:creator>Ann</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 03 Oct 2006 21:52:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cosmicvariance.com/?p=983#comment-123012</guid>
		<description>If facts are of any interest on this blog (and they so seldom are in political debate) Sean's original post on the new law is factually incorrect in a very significant way.  

U.S. citizens are NOT subject to being tried by military commission.  The law specifically defines the persons subject to trial by military tribunals as ALIEN unlawful enemy combatants (at Section 948c) and defines alien as a person who is not a citizen of the United States (at Section 948a).

A lawful enemy combatant is not subject to trial by military tribunal either.

Only an ALIEN UNLAWFUL ENEMY COMBATANT</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>If facts are of any interest on this blog (and they so seldom are in political debate) Sean&#8217;s original post on the new law is factually incorrect in a very significant way.  </p>
<p>U.S. citizens are NOT subject to being tried by military commission.  The law specifically defines the persons subject to trial by military tribunals as ALIEN unlawful enemy combatants (at Section 948c) and defines alien as a person who is not a citizen of the United States (at Section 948a).</p>
<p>A lawful enemy combatant is not subject to trial by military tribunal either.</p>
<p>Only an ALIEN UNLAWFUL ENEMY COMBATANT</p>
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		<title>By: Critter Proof &#124; Cosmic Variance</title>
		<link>http://cosmicvariance.com/2006/09/28/torture-and-permanent-detention-bill-passes/#comment-122688</link>
		<dc:creator>Critter Proof &#124; Cosmic Variance</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 01 Oct 2006 21:55:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cosmicvariance.com/?p=983#comment-122688</guid>
		<description>[...] Given the distressing and depressing news emanating from the US Congress the past couple of days, it&#8217;s time for a slightly more upbeat post. A success story, if you will. A serious problem that has been solved. Yes folks, it&#8217;s come to this: [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Given the distressing and depressing news emanating from the US Congress the past couple of days, it&#8217;s time for a slightly more upbeat post. A success story, if you will. A serious problem that has been solved. Yes folks, it&#8217;s come to this: [...]</p>
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		<title>By: bemused</title>
		<link>http://cosmicvariance.com/2006/09/28/torture-and-permanent-detention-bill-passes/#comment-122671</link>
		<dc:creator>bemused</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 01 Oct 2006 18:42:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cosmicvariance.com/?p=983#comment-122671</guid>
		<description>fh, I agree the words and the intent behind them is very noble. But in the end one gets judged by ones actions, not words. When I first came here I had a perhaps naive/idealistic picture of of the US as a beacon of democracy and hope to the world. However, over the past few years that view has been gradually eroded by reality. One's vote doesn't even count if one doesn't live in the right place, and then only if some sort of fraud is not being perpetrated. Whether one can run for office successfully is directly dependent on how much money one has. Don't get me even started about the sorry state of the press. The population is largely ignorant about important issues affecting their country and the world. Non-citizens are not treated with much friendliness by the authorities - these days you are made to feel very unwelcome when you enter the country. Sorry if I sound very critical but its the voice of disillusionment speaking.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>fh, I agree the words and the intent behind them is very noble. But in the end one gets judged by ones actions, not words. When I first came here I had a perhaps naive/idealistic picture of of the US as a beacon of democracy and hope to the world. However, over the past few years that view has been gradually eroded by reality. One&#8217;s vote doesn&#8217;t even count if one doesn&#8217;t live in the right place, and then only if some sort of fraud is not being perpetrated. Whether one can run for office successfully is directly dependent on how much money one has. Don&#8217;t get me even started about the sorry state of the press. The population is largely ignorant about important issues affecting their country and the world. Non-citizens are not treated with much friendliness by the authorities - these days you are made to feel very unwelcome when you enter the country. Sorry if I sound very critical but its the voice of disillusionment speaking.</p>
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		<title>By: Cynthia</title>
		<link>http://cosmicvariance.com/2006/09/28/torture-and-permanent-detention-bill-passes/#comment-122659</link>
		<dc:creator>Cynthia</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 01 Oct 2006 17:27:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cosmicvariance.com/?p=983#comment-122659</guid>
		<description>It sounds as though the Democratic Party has carelessly spun-off a senatorial breed of Blue Dog Democrats: a vicious breed that ought to be ejected from the premises of the US congress.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It sounds as though the Democratic Party has carelessly spun-off a senatorial breed of Blue Dog Democrats: a vicious breed that ought to be ejected from the premises of the US congress.</p>
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		<title>By: fh</title>
		<link>http://cosmicvariance.com/2006/09/28/torture-and-permanent-detention-bill-passes/#comment-122657</link>
		<dc:creator>fh</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 01 Oct 2006 17:10:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cosmicvariance.com/?p=983#comment-122657</guid>
		<description>Hmmmm... Iceland has only been ruling itself since 1904, And Switzerland only established a proper democracy in the 1800s (nevermind that Women's sufferage was only established in 1971), In 1780 about 3% of the Engliah population were eligible to vote, so it's by nature a gradual process and depending on where you draw the line I guess you could arrive at different countries.

I think what's safe to say is that none of these nations had a text beginning with the words "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal" at their basis. That slaves, black and women should be counted among men came gradually, but the US was a bold step, in France similar and bolder steps led to catastrophe and relapse into absolutism.

However, my point was merely that this is something worth remembering for critics of the US. Whether or in what sense they were "first" is not that important in this context.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hmmmm&#8230; Iceland has only been ruling itself since 1904, And Switzerland only established a proper democracy in the 1800s (nevermind that Women&#8217;s sufferage was only established in 1971), In 1780 about 3% of the Engliah population were eligible to vote, so it&#8217;s by nature a gradual process and depending on where you draw the line I guess you could arrive at different countries.</p>
<p>I think what&#8217;s safe to say is that none of these nations had a text beginning with the words &#8220;We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal&#8221; at their basis. That slaves, black and women should be counted among men came gradually, but the US was a bold step, in France similar and bolder steps led to catastrophe and relapse into absolutism.</p>
<p>However, my point was merely that this is something worth remembering for critics of the US. Whether or in what sense they were &#8220;first&#8221; is not that important in this context.</p>
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		<title>By: Cosmic Variance</title>
		<link>http://cosmicvariance.com/2006/09/28/torture-and-permanent-detention-bill-passes/#comment-122629</link>
		<dc:creator>Cosmic Variance</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 01 Oct 2006 14:41:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cosmicvariance.com/?p=983#comment-122629</guid>
		<description>&lt;strong&gt;The Theocracy Moves Ahead&lt;/strong&gt;

	I&#8217;ve been absent for a week or so, and will be for a few days more. However, before I hop on a plane, I thought I&#8217;d quickly comment on what a remarkable week it has been for the constitution.
	I hesitate slightly before continuing to write...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><strong>The Theocracy Moves Ahead</strong></p>
<p>	I&#8217;ve been absent for a week or so, and will be for a few days more. However, before I hop on a plane, I thought I&#8217;d quickly comment on what a remarkable week it has been for the constitution.<br />
	I hesitate slightly before continuing to write&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: bemused</title>
		<link>http://cosmicvariance.com/2006/09/28/torture-and-permanent-detention-bill-passes/#comment-122625</link>
		<dc:creator>bemused</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 01 Oct 2006 13:25:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cosmicvariance.com/?p=983#comment-122625</guid>
		<description>#48: fh, I pretty much agree with everything you said, but I have often heard Americans claim that the US is the world's oldest democracy - why? Iceland, Switzerland and Great Britain, for example, have had democratic institutions for far longer than the US has been in existence. New Zealand was the first to achieve universal suffrage, I believe, if your definition is the right to vote for all citizens. I thought blacks in the South effectively didn't even have the right to vote till the mid 1900s. I am often bemused by the mandate assumed by US politicians to "spread democracy around the world" - its arrogant and ignorant.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>#48: fh, I pretty much agree with everything you said, but I have often heard Americans claim that the US is the world&#8217;s oldest democracy - why? Iceland, Switzerland and Great Britain, for example, have had democratic institutions for far longer than the US has been in existence. New Zealand was the first to achieve universal suffrage, I believe, if your definition is the right to vote for all citizens. I thought blacks in the South effectively didn&#8217;t even have the right to vote till the mid 1900s. I am often bemused by the mandate assumed by US politicians to &#8220;spread democracy around the world&#8221; - its arrogant and ignorant.</p>
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		<title>By: PK</title>
		<link>http://cosmicvariance.com/2006/09/28/torture-and-permanent-detention-bill-passes/#comment-122616</link>
		<dc:creator>PK</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 01 Oct 2006 11:05:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cosmicvariance.com/?p=983#comment-122616</guid>
		<description>As John D clearly demonstrates (thanks John!), we tend to look at history through the filter of our politics and preconceptions. Therefore "proof by historic analogy" is deeply flawed, and can be used only as a rethorical trick. The real lessons of history are hardly ever learned.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>As John D clearly demonstrates (thanks John!), we tend to look at history through the filter of our politics and preconceptions. Therefore &#8220;proof by historic analogy&#8221; is deeply flawed, and can be used only as a rethorical trick. The real lessons of history are hardly ever learned.</p>
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		<title>By: fh</title>
		<link>http://cosmicvariance.com/2006/09/28/torture-and-permanent-detention-bill-passes/#comment-122614</link>
		<dc:creator>fh</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 01 Oct 2006 10:53:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cosmicvariance.com/?p=983#comment-122614</guid>
		<description>John D, why do you hate freedom?

Seriously:

a) Nobody here thinks the US is evil (in this comments at least). We just don't think that it's "good" by definition or divine destiny. If it's good it's good by it's actions.

b) Nobody here thinks that we should never involve ourselfs in other countries, most of the countries opposing the US' so called "War of Terror" and the "War on Iraq" were supporting the Blakan and Afghanisthan Wars. These were difficult decisions, too.

c) "Leftist sympathizers" want to understand the enemy to eliminate it. Instead of simply blindly waging vaguely or totally unrelated wars and thereby strengthening it (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/5384548.stm). We are against the war in Iraq because it's a 'cause celebre' for al Quaeda. We are shocked by this latest legislation because see a).
This is not about leftist sympathizers what the CIA has done and is now authorized to do is simply illegal. Several Attorney Generals are investigating CIA agents, some arrest warrants against CIA agents have been issued. This has nothing to do with partisan politics. This is quite simply an issue of modern civilization, the rule of law and reason. This is what makes us "good" and them "evil".

d) I personally have repeatedly argued that the US has been one of the most benign Imperial Powers the world has ever seen. Often opting for indirect and economic influence rather then direct control. The Roman empire was so succesfull in parts because it granted total Religious freedom to the subjugated regions.
The counter narrative is that misguided capitalist policies backed by Europe and the US have wrecked many countries economies and limited their democratic freedoms.

e) In order to maintain it's imperial influences the US agencies have, often without knowledge of the US people, resorted to anti-democratic, anti-freedom, anti-human rights methods, these deeds stand in contrast to the (not purely, though partially selfless) deeds you mentioned.
The US left? Well except of course for the military bases it has throughout Germany.
(And if you want to be legalistic about it: "Germany remained under nominal military occupation until 12 September 1990, when the Treaty on the Final Settlement With Respect to Germany, the final peace treaty, was signed by the four powers and the two German governments, restoring German sovereignty." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allied_Control_Council)

f) Internally the US has shown time and time again that it has a great resillience to fascist tendencies, McCarthy, Concentration camps during WWII for the Japanese, and so on, all resulted in a backlash that undid these terrible things, so I have no doubt that this will happen again, because people like Sean and others who have commented will push things back. It's not accidental that the US is the longest surviving democracy on this planet...

g) For me the central question is the following: The US (and to a somewhat lesser degree the EU) are militarily and economically the dominant powers in the world today. This will last for a few more decades until China overtakes us and the brief centuries of European dominance (of which the US dominance is just the latest chapter) of the globe come to an end.
What do we do with our power? We defend our values, of course. We cannot accept the limits on freedom of speech, science and culture that the terrorist threat has brought forth. This is not neccessarily best done by military power of course, ideally we would just be calm about the "terrorist threat" which is minimal anyways (http://www.boingboing.net/2006/09/17/flu_hernia_or_police.html).
But beyond that? Do we try to spread our values? If so these can only be our humanist values and not our christian values. Our humanist and democratic values were developed in a specific cultural tradition and context though, and though I believe them to be in some sense universal it's likely that each soiciety needs to reach these universal values in their own way.
This is a diffcult question to which your postings have not contributed at all, in fact they merely distract from this, IMO, most real and urgent question facing us.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>John D, why do you hate freedom?</p>
<p>Seriously:</p>
<p>a) Nobody here thinks the US is evil (in this comments at least). We just don&#8217;t think that it&#8217;s &#8220;good&#8221; by definition or divine destiny. If it&#8217;s good it&#8217;s good by it&#8217;s actions.</p>
<p>b) Nobody here thinks that we should never involve ourselfs in other countries, most of the countries opposing the US&#8217; so called &#8220;War of Terror&#8221; and the &#8220;War on Iraq&#8221; were supporting the Blakan and Afghanisthan Wars. These were difficult decisions, too.</p>
<p>c) &#8220;Leftist sympathizers&#8221; want to understand the enemy to eliminate it. Instead of simply blindly waging vaguely or totally unrelated wars and thereby strengthening it (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/5384548.stm). We are against the war in Iraq because it&#8217;s a &#8217;cause celebre&#8217; for al Quaeda. We are shocked by this latest legislation because see a).<br />
This is not about leftist sympathizers what the CIA has done and is now authorized to do is simply illegal. Several Attorney Generals are investigating CIA agents, some arrest warrants against CIA agents have been issued. This has nothing to do with partisan politics. This is quite simply an issue of modern civilization, the rule of law and reason. This is what makes us &#8220;good&#8221; and them &#8220;evil&#8221;.</p>
<p>d) I personally have repeatedly argued that the US has been one of the most benign Imperial Powers the world has ever seen. Often opting for indirect and economic influence rather then direct control. The Roman empire was so succesfull in parts because it granted total Religious freedom to the subjugated regions.<br />
The counter narrative is that misguided capitalist policies backed by Europe and the US have wrecked many countries economies and limited their democratic freedoms.</p>
<p>e) In order to maintain it&#8217;s imperial influences the US agencies have, often without knowledge of the US people, resorted to anti-democratic, anti-freedom, anti-human rights methods, these deeds stand in contrast to the (not purely, though partially selfless) deeds you mentioned.<br />
The US left? Well except of course for the military bases it has throughout Germany.<br />
(And if you want to be legalistic about it: &#8220;Germany remained under nominal military occupation until 12 September 1990, when the Treaty on the Final Settlement With Respect to Germany, the final peace treaty, was signed by the four powers and the two German governments, restoring German sovereignty.&#8221; <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allied_Control_Council" rel="nofollow">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allied_Control_Council</a>)</p>
<p>f) Internally the US has shown time and time again that it has a great resillience to fascist tendencies, McCarthy, Concentration camps during WWII for the Japanese, and so on, all resulted in a backlash that undid these terrible things, so I have no doubt that this will happen again, because people like Sean and others who have commented will push things back. It&#8217;s not accidental that the US is the longest surviving democracy on this planet&#8230;</p>
<p>g) For me the central question is the following: The US (and to a somewhat lesser degree the EU) are militarily and economically the dominant powers in the world today. This will last for a few more decades until China overtakes us and the brief centuries of European dominance (of which the US dominance is just the latest chapter) of the globe come to an end.<br />
What do we do with our power? We defend our values, of course. We cannot accept the limits on freedom of speech, science and culture that the terrorist threat has brought forth. This is not neccessarily best done by military power of course, ideally we would just be calm about the &#8220;terrorist threat&#8221; which is minimal anyways (http://www.boingboing.net/2006/09/17/flu_hernia_or_police.html).<br />
But beyond that? Do we try to spread our values? If so these can only be our humanist values and not our christian values. Our humanist and democratic values were developed in a specific cultural tradition and context though, and though I believe them to be in some sense universal it&#8217;s likely that each soiciety needs to reach these universal values in their own way.<br />
This is a diffcult question to which your postings have not contributed at all, in fact they merely distract from this, IMO, most real and urgent question facing us.</p>
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		<title>By: Allyson</title>
		<link>http://cosmicvariance.com/2006/09/28/torture-and-permanent-detention-bill-passes/#comment-122586</link>
		<dc:creator>Allyson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 01 Oct 2006 03:38:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cosmicvariance.com/?p=983#comment-122586</guid>
		<description>Having nothing useful to add, perhaps I can at least provide a service and start taking bets on how many posts it will take before someone invokes Godwin?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Having nothing useful to add, perhaps I can at least provide a service and start taking bets on how many posts it will take before someone invokes Godwin?</p>
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		<title>By: marcello</title>
		<link>http://cosmicvariance.com/2006/09/28/torture-and-permanent-detention-bill-passes/#comment-122584</link>
		<dc:creator>marcello</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 01 Oct 2006 03:21:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cosmicvariance.com/?p=983#comment-122584</guid>
		<description>Donna, can you say something about the issue, instead of just critisizing fellow blogger?
To those who think black and white is bad; what is your preference then?
grey or colors?
For those who don't like simplistic; perhaps you could move to france where they discuss everything to death.
And the frog sympathisers, perhaps you did not hear about the compassion a very young George W. showed his mother when his very young older sister died of leukemia.   Why not read up on that; doesn't fit in with a preconceived notion of what you would rather believe?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Donna, can you say something about the issue, instead of just critisizing fellow blogger?<br />
To those who think black and white is bad; what is your preference then?<br />
grey or colors?<br />
For those who don&#8217;t like simplistic; perhaps you could move to france where they discuss everything to death.<br />
And the frog sympathisers, perhaps you did not hear about the compassion a very young George W. showed his mother when his very young older sister died of leukemia.   Why not read up on that; doesn&#8217;t fit in with a preconceived notion of what you would rather believe?</p>
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		<title>By: Chris W.</title>
		<link>http://cosmicvariance.com/2006/09/28/torture-and-permanent-detention-bill-passes/#comment-122579</link>
		<dc:creator>Chris W.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 01 Oct 2006 01:34:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cosmicvariance.com/?p=983#comment-122579</guid>
		<description>I guess this is what happens when 50+% of the American people vote for a man who found it amusing to &lt;a href="http://pharyngula.org/index/weblog/comments/gw_bush_torturer_of_small_animals/" rel="nofollow"&gt;torture small animals as a child&lt;/a&gt;.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I guess this is what happens when 50+% of the American people vote for a man who found it amusing to <a href="http://pharyngula.org/index/weblog/comments/gw_bush_torturer_of_small_animals/" rel="nofollow">torture small animals as a child</a>.</p>
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