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	<title>Comments on: Throwing While Black</title>
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	<link>http://cosmicvariance.com/2006/07/30/throwing-while-black/</link>
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	<pubDate>Fri, 25 Jul 2008 14:21:16 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>By: Neil</title>
		<link>http://cosmicvariance.com/2006/07/30/throwing-while-black/#comment-110835</link>
		<dc:creator>Neil</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 07 Aug 2006 10:26:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cosmicvariance.com/?p=928#comment-110835</guid>
		<description>Thank you Sean!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thank you Sean!</p>
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		<title>By: nibaq</title>
		<link>http://cosmicvariance.com/2006/07/30/throwing-while-black/#comment-110660</link>
		<dc:creator>nibaq</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 04 Aug 2006 20:49:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cosmicvariance.com/?p=928#comment-110660</guid>
		<description>Thanks for the great post. I was never a fan of Moon, but thats cause I caught him at the end of his career with the Seahawks, but now I have new found respect for the man.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks for the great post. I was never a fan of Moon, but thats cause I caught him at the end of his career with the Seahawks, but now I have new found respect for the man.</p>
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		<title>By: Yummy Yummy &#187; Nice little history of Warren Moon, the NFL&apos;s first prominent black quarterback, on the occasion of his induction into the NFL Hall of Fame</title>
		<link>http://cosmicvariance.com/2006/07/30/throwing-while-black/#comment-110606</link>
		<dc:creator>Yummy Yummy &#187; Nice little history of Warren Moon, the NFL&apos;s first prominent black quarterback, on the occasion of his induction into the NFL Hall of Fame</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 04 Aug 2006 12:17:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cosmicvariance.com/?p=928#comment-110606</guid>
		<description>[...] Nice little history of Warren Moon, the NFL&#8217;s first prominent black quarterback, on the occasion of his induction into the NFL Hall of Fame. (via a.whole) [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Nice little history of Warren Moon, the NFL&#8217;s first prominent black quarterback, on the occasion of his induction into the NFL Hall of Fame. (via a.whole) [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Joao Carlos</title>
		<link>http://cosmicvariance.com/2006/07/30/throwing-while-black/#comment-109344</link>
		<dc:creator>Joao Carlos</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 01 Aug 2006 02:43:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cosmicvariance.com/?p=928#comment-109344</guid>
		<description>I still remember the first ever Superbowl trasnmited to Brazil; 1988, that was. Resdkins, led by Doug Williams, beat unmercifully the Elway's Broncos...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I still remember the first ever Superbowl trasnmited to Brazil; 1988, that was. Resdkins, led by Doug Williams, beat unmercifully the Elway&#8217;s Broncos&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: Arun</title>
		<link>http://cosmicvariance.com/2006/07/30/throwing-while-black/#comment-109124</link>
		<dc:creator>Arun</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 31 Jul 2006 20:12:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cosmicvariance.com/?p=928#comment-109124</guid>
		<description>Well, Warren Moon's struggles may have been aided by someone who had no moral qualms about racism, but thought - hey, maybe I can make some money here.  The free market has no agency - it doesn't "do" anything - it is a means of incentives and disincentives.  People do things, e.g., like Warren Moon.

The interesting question is - are racial barriers or gender barriers broken down faster with or without the free market?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Well, Warren Moon&#8217;s struggles may have been aided by someone who had no moral qualms about racism, but thought - hey, maybe I can make some money here.  The free market has no agency - it doesn&#8217;t &#8220;do&#8221; anything - it is a means of incentives and disincentives.  People do things, e.g., like Warren Moon.</p>
<p>The interesting question is - are racial barriers or gender barriers broken down faster with or without the free market?</p>
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		<title>By: Sean</title>
		<link>http://cosmicvariance.com/2006/07/30/throwing-while-black/#comment-108988</link>
		<dc:creator>Sean</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 31 Jul 2006 17:17:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cosmicvariance.com/?p=928#comment-108988</guid>
		<description>Wait a minute, Chris -- you left a comment on my post, and I responded, and you agreed that my response had a good point?  This can't be the internet!  In return I will cut Chapman some slack as a good Cubs fan.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Wait a minute, Chris &#8212; you left a comment on my post, and I responded, and you agreed that my response had a good point?  This can&#8217;t be the internet!  In return I will cut Chapman some slack as a good Cubs fan.</p>
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		<title>By: John Branch</title>
		<link>http://cosmicvariance.com/2006/07/30/throwing-while-black/#comment-108967</link>
		<dc:creator>John Branch</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 31 Jul 2006 16:46:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cosmicvariance.com/?p=928#comment-108967</guid>
		<description>Wow--I didn't know any of this about Warren Moon's background. Sad to say, there are bound to be other stories similar to his. Probably among the &lt;i&gt;coaches&lt;/i&gt; of professional sports, for one.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Wow&#8211;I didn&#8217;t know any of this about Warren Moon&#8217;s background. Sad to say, there are bound to be other stories similar to his. Probably among the <i>coaches</i> of professional sports, for one.</p>
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		<title>By: Chris</title>
		<link>http://cosmicvariance.com/2006/07/30/throwing-while-black/#comment-108825</link>
		<dc:creator>Chris</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 31 Jul 2006 12:18:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cosmicvariance.com/?p=928#comment-108825</guid>
		<description>Sean,

touche.  I wasn't following the angle whereby Chapman dismissed the modern success of black quarterbacks as a consequence of the free market.  I agree that this is a very wrong and pernicious message to convey if he did it  intentionally.  I mainly aimed to address the statement summarized in his concluding paragraph, which seems a more innocent point, although it now seems to be not the whole story.

p.s. -- i'm dying to cut chapman some slack since he writes for my favorite newspaper and baseball team owning organization.  So maybe it isn't completely fair to associate him so closely with Nat'l Review.  After all, he did come to Chicago from the New Republic, and writes for Slate as well, so he may not be totally without values :)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Sean,</p>
<p>touche.  I wasn&#8217;t following the angle whereby Chapman dismissed the modern success of black quarterbacks as a consequence of the free market.  I agree that this is a very wrong and pernicious message to convey if he did it  intentionally.  I mainly aimed to address the statement summarized in his concluding paragraph, which seems a more innocent point, although it now seems to be not the whole story.</p>
<p>p.s. &#8212; i&#8217;m dying to cut chapman some slack since he writes for my favorite newspaper and baseball team owning organization.  So maybe it isn&#8217;t completely fair to associate him so closely with Nat&#8217;l Review.  After all, he did come to Chicago from the New Republic, and writes for Slate as well, so he may not be totally without values <img src='http://cosmicvariance.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' /></p>
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		<title>By: Sean</title>
		<link>http://cosmicvariance.com/2006/07/30/throwing-while-black/#comment-108688</link>
		<dc:creator>Sean</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 31 Jul 2006 11:15:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cosmicvariance.com/?p=928#comment-108688</guid>
		<description>Sara, I hadn't seen that book, thanks for the tip.

Chris, Chapman's article argues that "sentiment" -- which is an interesting category under which to include "racism," when you think about it -- "doesn't count for much in the NFL,"  and therefore that the media should quit whining about the unfair treatment of black quarterbacks.  As if racism, which was perfectly obvious as little as ten or twenty years ago, had suddenly vanished to be replaced by a color-blind devotion to winning.  And as if this vanishing were not due to the sacrifices and perseverance of people like Moon, but simply to the genius of the free market.  Which seems awfully simplistic and inflammatory to me.  I have never noticed any refusal to acknowledge when progress is being made, nor does it sound like a problem I'd be writing columns about if my magazine had stubbornly been denying the existence of any problem against which it was necessary to make progress in the first place.

jb, I use them when they were in the original article from which I cut and pasted the quote, and to which I linked.  Nothing more delicate than that.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Sara, I hadn&#8217;t seen that book, thanks for the tip.</p>
<p>Chris, Chapman&#8217;s article argues that &#8220;sentiment&#8221; &#8212; which is an interesting category under which to include &#8220;racism,&#8221; when you think about it &#8212; &#8220;doesn&#8217;t count for much in the NFL,&#8221;  and therefore that the media should quit whining about the unfair treatment of black quarterbacks.  As if racism, which was perfectly obvious as little as ten or twenty years ago, had suddenly vanished to be replaced by a color-blind devotion to winning.  And as if this vanishing were not due to the sacrifices and perseverance of people like Moon, but simply to the genius of the free market.  Which seems awfully simplistic and inflammatory to me.  I have never noticed any refusal to acknowledge when progress is being made, nor does it sound like a problem I&#8217;d be writing columns about if my magazine had stubbornly been denying the existence of any problem against which it was necessary to make progress in the first place.</p>
<p>jb, I use them when they were in the original article from which I cut and pasted the quote, and to which I linked.  Nothing more delicate than that.</p>
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		<title>By: jb</title>
		<link>http://cosmicvariance.com/2006/07/30/throwing-while-black/#comment-108508</link>
		<dc:creator>jb</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 31 Jul 2006 08:05:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cosmicvariance.com/?p=928#comment-108508</guid>
		<description>Dude, what's up with the dashes in "f---- n---"?  How positively Victorian.

If you care to explain when &#38; why you use them, I'd love to hear it.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Dude, what&#8217;s up with the dashes in &#8220;f&#8212;- n&#8212;&#8221;?  How positively Victorian.</p>
<p>If you care to explain when &amp; why you use them, I&#8217;d love to hear it.</p>
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		<title>By: Chris</title>
		<link>http://cosmicvariance.com/2006/07/30/throwing-while-black/#comment-108479</link>
		<dc:creator>Chris</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 31 Jul 2006 06:41:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cosmicvariance.com/?p=928#comment-108479</guid>
		<description>Sean,

I would just point out that the point of Steve Chapman's article you cited doesn't appear to be as simplistic (or inflammatory) as you suggest.  Rather than claiming that racism doesn't exist, Chapman seems to be suggesting that in addition to the unconscious (and conscious as well, to be sure) racism that remains in our society, there is another, more subtle problem.  This is the refusal of some to acknowledge when progress is being made, even if it does not represent a full solution to the problem.  

Without such acknowledgement, one could argue that an atmosphere will develop in which battles against discrimination are not viewed as ones that can be won.  Instead, as is not altogether uncommon today, folks will default to a mentality in which they point out all the problems due to racism, sexism, etc. in society without thinking constructively about solutions.

Of course, alternatively, if one only focuses on the progress being made, people may begin to take for granted the improvement in the social condition, maybe resulting in a reversal of progress.  All of this is simply the statement that discrimination is a very difficult problem to deal with, especially in a society in which much of it has ben institutionalized!  I may have gotten of topic, but I think the point (or at least A point) that Chapman makes that is particularly good is that there are a lot of people today who strive to find places in which they can lament the poor state of social equity without at least thinking about the progress that has been made and the progress that can be made.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Sean,</p>
<p>I would just point out that the point of Steve Chapman&#8217;s article you cited doesn&#8217;t appear to be as simplistic (or inflammatory) as you suggest.  Rather than claiming that racism doesn&#8217;t exist, Chapman seems to be suggesting that in addition to the unconscious (and conscious as well, to be sure) racism that remains in our society, there is another, more subtle problem.  This is the refusal of some to acknowledge when progress is being made, even if it does not represent a full solution to the problem.  </p>
<p>Without such acknowledgement, one could argue that an atmosphere will develop in which battles against discrimination are not viewed as ones that can be won.  Instead, as is not altogether uncommon today, folks will default to a mentality in which they point out all the problems due to racism, sexism, etc. in society without thinking constructively about solutions.</p>
<p>Of course, alternatively, if one only focuses on the progress being made, people may begin to take for granted the improvement in the social condition, maybe resulting in a reversal of progress.  All of this is simply the statement that discrimination is a very difficult problem to deal with, especially in a society in which much of it has ben institutionalized!  I may have gotten of topic, but I think the point (or at least A point) that Chapman makes that is particularly good is that there are a lot of people today who strive to find places in which they can lament the poor state of social equity without at least thinking about the progress that has been made and the progress that can be made.</p>
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		<title>By: Sara</title>
		<link>http://cosmicvariance.com/2006/07/30/throwing-while-black/#comment-108438</link>
		<dc:creator>Sara</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 31 Jul 2006 06:01:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cosmicvariance.com/?p=928#comment-108438</guid>
		<description>Sean, very much along the same lines, have you seen this new book?
Forty Million Dollar Slaves: The Rise, Fall, and Redemption of the Black Athlete

There was also a great review/overview in the NYT here:
http://www.nytimes.com/2006/07/23/books/review/23goldstein.html?ex=1154491200&#38;en=4bb494d5eaac478c&#38;ei=5070</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Sean, very much along the same lines, have you seen this new book?<br />
Forty Million Dollar Slaves: The Rise, Fall, and Redemption of the Black Athlete</p>
<p>There was also a great review/overview in the NYT here:<br />
<a href="http://www.nytimes.com/2006/07/23/books/review/23goldstein.html?ex=1154491200&amp;en=4bb494d5eaac478c&amp;ei=5070" rel="nofollow">http://www.nytimes.com/2006/07/23/books/review/23goldstein.html?ex=1154491200&amp;en=4bb494d5eaac478c&amp;ei=5070</a></p>
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		<title>By: Arun Madhav</title>
		<link>http://cosmicvariance.com/2006/07/30/throwing-while-black/#comment-108015</link>
		<dc:creator>Arun Madhav</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 30 Jul 2006 22:47:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cosmicvariance.com/?p=928#comment-108015</guid>
		<description>Very inspiring.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Very inspiring.</p>
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		<title>By: alienmist</title>
		<link>http://cosmicvariance.com/2006/07/30/throwing-while-black/#comment-107918</link>
		<dc:creator>alienmist</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 30 Jul 2006 20:24:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://cosmicvariance.com/?p=928#comment-107918</guid>
		<description>I can't help but think "mott" is typing away, he always seemed to like this kind of topics.

I do think somehow, humanity will never reach that point. if only we could!!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I can&#8217;t help but think &#8220;mott&#8221; is typing away, he always seemed to like this kind of topics.</p>
<p>I do think somehow, humanity will never reach that point. if only we could!!</p>
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