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	<title>Comments on: A Path Forward</title>
	<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2006/05/04/a-path-forward/</link>
	<description>Random samplings from a universe of ideas.</description>
	<pubDate>Mon, 01 Dec 2008 19:21:43 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>By: Is That a Particle Accelerator in Your Pocket, Or Are You Just Happy to See Me? &#124; Cosmic Variance</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2006/05/04/a-path-forward/#comment-15644</link>
		<dc:creator>Is That a Particle Accelerator in Your Pocket, Or Are You Just Happy to See Me? &#124; Cosmic Variance</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 04 Oct 2006 22:49:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2006/05/04/a-path-forward/#comment-15644</guid>
		<description>[...] The Large Hadron Collider accelerates protons to an energy of 7000 GeV, which is pretty impressive. (A GeV is a billion electron volts; the energy in a single proton at rest, using E=mc2, is about 1 GeV.) But it requires a 27-kilometer ring, and the cost is measured in billions of dollars. The next planned accelerator is the International Linear Collider (ILC), which will be similarly grand in size and cost. People have worried, not without reason, that the end is in sight for experimental particle physics at the energy frontier, as it becomes prohibitively expensive to build new machines. [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[&#8230;] The Large Hadron Collider accelerates protons to an energy of 7000 GeV, which is pretty impressive. (A GeV is a billion electron volts; the energy in a single proton at rest, using E=mc2, is about 1 GeV.) But it requires a 27-kilometer ring, and the cost is measured in billions of dollars. The next planned accelerator is the International Linear Collider (ILC), which will be similarly grand in size and cost. People have worried, not without reason, that the end is in sight for experimental particle physics at the energy frontier, as it becomes prohibitively expensive to build new machines. [&#8230;]</p>
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		<title>By: chi c&#8217;e&#8217; in ascolto &#187; Fermilab User Meeting</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2006/05/04/a-path-forward/#comment-15643</link>
		<dc:creator>chi c&#8217;e&#8217; in ascolto &#187; Fermilab User Meeting</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 02 Jun 2006 17:02:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2006/05/04/a-path-forward/#comment-15643</guid>
		<description>[...] To go back to the Users Meeting, Augustine&#8217;s lecture was nevertheless very interesting, if nothing else because it&#8217;s this kind of talk that makes lawmakers move and take decisions which can influence our (scientists) future&#8230;. On Thursday we moved from the general issue of the future of science to the more pressing (for us particle physicists) issue of the future of HEP (and Fermilab). Harold Shapiro,economist and former Princeton University president, reported on the finding of yet another National Academies report, the &#8220;EPP2010 panel&#8221; report which has been recently released ( a good posting in another physics blog can be found  here ): the panel recognizes that in HEP too the U.S. are seriously risking to loose their leadership role. Of course, given the growing international nature of HEP, by leadership, &#8220;the panel doesn&#8217;t mean dominating everyone else,&#8221; Shapiro explained. &#8220;Leadership means being among the leaders: could the US remain there? Leadership is very important to realize the intellectual, economic, social and cultural dividends from the public investment. The panel concludes that the US should aspire to a leadership role: not in terms of singular dominance, but taking the initiative at the frontiers.&#8221; This translates into a strong recommendation for a US bid to host the proposed International Lineral Collider. Given the enourmous budget needed to build and operate the ILC, several smaller (short term) projects would inevitably be cancelled in favor of a long term vision where the US is still at the forefront of reaserach in HEP. [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[&#8230;] To go back to the Users Meeting, Augustine&#8217;s lecture was nevertheless very interesting, if nothing else because it&#8217;s this kind of talk that makes lawmakers move and take decisions which can influence our (scientists) future&#8230;. On Thursday we moved from the general issue of the future of science to the more pressing (for us particle physicists) issue of the future of HEP (and Fermilab). Harold Shapiro,economist and former Princeton University president, reported on the finding of yet another National Academies report, the &#8220;EPP2010 panel&#8221; report which has been recently released ( a good posting in another physics blog can be found  here ): the panel recognizes that in HEP too the U.S. are seriously risking to loose their leadership role. Of course, given the growing international nature of HEP, by leadership, &#8220;the panel doesn&#8217;t mean dominating everyone else,&#8221; Shapiro explained. &#8220;Leadership means being among the leaders: could the US remain there? Leadership is very important to realize the intellectual, economic, social and cultural dividends from the public investment. The panel concludes that the US should aspire to a leadership role: not in terms of singular dominance, but taking the initiative at the frontiers.&#8221; This translates into a strong recommendation for a US bid to host the proposed International Lineral Collider. Given the enourmous budget needed to build and operate the ILC, several smaller (short term) projects would inevitably be cancelled in favor of a long term vision where the US is still at the forefront of reaserach in HEP. [&#8230;]</p>
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		<title>By: Discovering the Quantum Universe &#124; Cosmic Variance</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2006/05/04/a-path-forward/#comment-15619</link>
		<dc:creator>Discovering the Quantum Universe &#124; Cosmic Variance</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 23 May 2006 23:08:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2006/05/04/a-path-forward/#comment-15619</guid>
		<description>[...] It's out! This long awaited report has made its debut! 16 of us spent a large fraction of last summer writing a snazzy report that explains the excitement of 21st-century particle physics to audiences who are not science experts - at the request of folks at DOE and NSF. A somewhat technical version was submitted to the EPP2010 panel, and a less technical version has just been publicly launched at a Congressional xxxx amidst great fanfare. Brian Green of Elegant Universe fame gave the presentation and brought along his buddy, Alan Alda, to smooze with members of Congress. Who said particle physics doesn't have star power?! [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[&#8230;] It&#8217;s out! This long awaited report has made its debut! 16 of us spent a large fraction of last summer writing a snazzy report that explains the excitement of 21st-century particle physics to audiences who are not science experts - at the request of folks at DOE and NSF. A somewhat technical version was submitted to the EPP2010 panel, and a less technical version has just been publicly launched at a Congressional xxxx amidst great fanfare. Brian Green of Elegant Universe fame gave the presentation and brought along his buddy, Alan Alda, to smooze with members of Congress. Who said particle physics doesn&#8217;t have star power?! [&#8230;]</p>
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		<title>By: Not Even Wrong &#187; Blog Archive &#187; Revealing the Hidden Nature of Space and Time</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2006/05/04/a-path-forward/#comment-15618</link>
		<dc:creator>Not Even Wrong &#187; Blog Archive &#187; Revealing the Hidden Nature of Space and Time</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 08 May 2006 16:56:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2006/05/04/a-path-forward/#comment-15618</guid>
		<description>[...] Update: More from JoAnne Hewett at Cosmic Variance. [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[&#8230;] Update: More from JoAnne Hewett at Cosmic Variance. [&#8230;]</p>
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		<title>By: Will</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2006/05/04/a-path-forward/#comment-15642</link>
		<dc:creator>Will</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 07 May 2006 04:09:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2006/05/04/a-path-forward/#comment-15642</guid>
		<description>"The trick, however, is to invest in the ILC without killing off everything else - that's for another committee to figure out! High risk, high pay-off."

Actually, it is must be and will figured  out by each of us who gets HEP-related proposals to review.  If as reviewers we take the stance that "it's not ILC, so I score it low priority," then the prospect of an ILC will likely damage our field.  If we realize that LHC will likely see 2 upgrades before any possible ILC data arrives, that  RHIC upgrades may offer exciting physics before 2020, then we will be more careful not to choke off inventiveness and innovation in our field before ILC.  The opportunity for prudence and wisdom is ours, not some blue-ribbon panel's.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;The trick, however, is to invest in the ILC without killing off everything else - that&#8217;s for another committee to figure out! High risk, high pay-off.&#8221;</p>
<p>Actually, it is must be and will figured  out by each of us who gets HEP-related proposals to review.  If as reviewers we take the stance that &#8220;it&#8217;s not ILC, so I score it low priority,&#8221; then the prospect of an ILC will likely damage our field.  If we realize that LHC will likely see 2 upgrades before any possible ILC data arrives, that  RHIC upgrades may offer exciting physics before 2020, then we will be more careful not to choke off inventiveness and innovation in our field before ILC.  The opportunity for prudence and wisdom is ours, not some blue-ribbon panel&#8217;s.</p>
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		<title>By: Cyberspace Rendezvous :: A Path Forward &#124; Cosmic Variance :: May :: 2006</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2006/05/04/a-path-forward/#comment-15641</link>
		<dc:creator>Cyberspace Rendezvous :: A Path Forward &#124; Cosmic Variance :: May :: 2006</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 06 May 2006 21:39:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2006/05/04/a-path-forward/#comment-15641</guid>
		<description>[...] A Cosmic Variance post talks about high-risk, high pay-off with particle physics. This is a story with a hopeful ending, in which particle physics was in trouble in the US and a special committee was formed to assess the need for work done in the US on particle physics&#8211; whether it need be competitive with other nations in this field. The particle physics community needs to decide whether it will rally around this report or not. I feel strongly that it should. This is a golden opportunity that numerous people have worked hard for, and we should take every advantage of it. It won&#8217;t happen again. [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[&#8230;] A Cosmic Variance post talks about high-risk, high pay-off with particle physics. This is a story with a hopeful ending, in which particle physics was in trouble in the US and a special committee was formed to assess the need for work done in the US on particle physics&#8211; whether it need be competitive with other nations in this field. The particle physics community needs to decide whether it will rally around this report or not. I feel strongly that it should. This is a golden opportunity that numerous people have worked hard for, and we should take every advantage of it. It won&rsquo;t happen again. [&#8230;]</p>
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		<title>By: collin</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2006/05/04/a-path-forward/#comment-15640</link>
		<dc:creator>collin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 05 May 2006 22:07:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2006/05/04/a-path-forward/#comment-15640</guid>
		<description>Thanks for posting this JoAnne. I just finished reading the report
last night (I'm a slow reader), and I must say, I'm not as
enthusiastic as you are. The field of Particle Physics is facing
uncertain times-- we've gotten just about all the useful information
from current projects that we can about the Terascale (though
certainly not all!) and we don't really know what's going on. The LHC
is about to turn on, and we think it's going to give us some tangible
clues as to what's going on with electroweak symmetry breaking and
possibly dark matter and other current puzzles. In the midst of this,
the field is telling Congress and the funding agencies that *the* way
to proceed is with the ILC. Very little respect is given to Nature
here.

While I'll grant that the ILC is most likely the best way to continue
exploring the Terascale, it's possible it won't be. The scenario I
have running through my head is that by 2010, all the funds for US
accelerator based particle physics are going into the LHC and the
ILC. But the LHC finds nothing but a 160 GeV Higgs. No clues as to the
dynamics of EWSB or to the Heirarchy Problem or to the nature of the
dark mass are found. If this is the case, I'm terrified Congress will
say, "You found nothing you told us you would at the LHC, so there's
no reason to fund the ILC." Congress then takes away all the money and
puts it into battleships, just like the SSC. The field is obliterated
and all that's left is particle astrophysics and cosmology. Honestly,
I wouldn't blame them.

I think a more appropriate message to Congress is that Nature is a coy
mistress, and we need to be prepared for whatever she may give us. To
me, this does mean continuing on with the ILC planning. But it also
means investing more in accelerator physics, especially a muon
collider (for a Higgs factory or neutrino beam). It means
continuing to run the Tevatron and CDF/D0 as stripped down precision
(rather than discovery) machines to keep a stream of students coming
through this country, even if it is dwarfed by the LHC. Also worth
noting, once you turn off the Tevatron, you'll never get it back. And
it's certainly possible the LHC might see something only the Tevatron
could explore more fully. It means investing in reasonable scale
precision measurement experiments. I don't necessarily mean BTeV, but
I probably do mean an experiment like CKM.

The concern of the committee seems to be that if we don't fund the ILC
right now, someone else will. I don't see that happening. The ILC will
require an international collaboration to build with the host country
putting up roughly half of the funds. This is true whether or not it's
built here or abroad. It will require Europe, the US and Japan all
agreeing on one site and one technology, and any one party can drag
their feet (for example, Europe might drag their feet b/c they want to
see CLIC chosen or they're over their heads with the LHC). So, by
pushing the start date of the ILC a little in the future, we would be
much better positioned to maximize our resources when the LHC tells us
what Nature has in store for us.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks for posting this JoAnne. I just finished reading the report<br />
last night (I&#8217;m a slow reader), and I must say, I&#8217;m not as<br />
enthusiastic as you are. The field of Particle Physics is facing<br />
uncertain times&#8211; we&#8217;ve gotten just about all the useful information<br />
from current projects that we can about the Terascale (though<br />
certainly not all!) and we don&#8217;t really know what&#8217;s going on. The LHC<br />
is about to turn on, and we think it&#8217;s going to give us some tangible<br />
clues as to what&#8217;s going on with electroweak symmetry breaking and<br />
possibly dark matter and other current puzzles. In the midst of this,<br />
the field is telling Congress and the funding agencies that *the* way<br />
to proceed is with the ILC. Very little respect is given to Nature<br />
here.</p>
<p>While I&#8217;ll grant that the ILC is most likely the best way to continue<br />
exploring the Terascale, it&#8217;s possible it won&#8217;t be. The scenario I<br />
have running through my head is that by 2010, all the funds for US<br />
accelerator based particle physics are going into the LHC and the<br />
ILC. But the LHC finds nothing but a 160 GeV Higgs. No clues as to the<br />
dynamics of EWSB or to the Heirarchy Problem or to the nature of the<br />
dark mass are found. If this is the case, I&#8217;m terrified Congress will<br />
say, &#8220;You found nothing you told us you would at the LHC, so there&#8217;s<br />
no reason to fund the ILC.&#8221; Congress then takes away all the money and<br />
puts it into battleships, just like the SSC. The field is obliterated<br />
and all that&#8217;s left is particle astrophysics and cosmology. Honestly,<br />
I wouldn&#8217;t blame them.</p>
<p>I think a more appropriate message to Congress is that Nature is a coy<br />
mistress, and we need to be prepared for whatever she may give us. To<br />
me, this does mean continuing on with the ILC planning. But it also<br />
means investing more in accelerator physics, especially a muon<br />
collider (for a Higgs factory or neutrino beam). It means<br />
continuing to run the Tevatron and CDF/D0 as stripped down precision<br />
(rather than discovery) machines to keep a stream of students coming<br />
through this country, even if it is dwarfed by the LHC. Also worth<br />
noting, once you turn off the Tevatron, you&#8217;ll never get it back. And<br />
it&#8217;s certainly possible the LHC might see something only the Tevatron<br />
could explore more fully. It means investing in reasonable scale<br />
precision measurement experiments. I don&#8217;t necessarily mean BTeV, but<br />
I probably do mean an experiment like CKM.</p>
<p>The concern of the committee seems to be that if we don&#8217;t fund the ILC<br />
right now, someone else will. I don&#8217;t see that happening. The ILC will<br />
require an international collaboration to build with the host country<br />
putting up roughly half of the funds. This is true whether or not it&#8217;s<br />
built here or abroad. It will require Europe, the US and Japan all<br />
agreeing on one site and one technology, and any one party can drag<br />
their feet (for example, Europe might drag their feet b/c they want to<br />
see CLIC chosen or they&#8217;re over their heads with the LHC). So, by<br />
pushing the start date of the ILC a little in the future, we would be<br />
much better positioned to maximize our resources when the LHC tells us<br />
what Nature has in store for us.</p>
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		<title>By: Belizean</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2006/05/04/a-path-forward/#comment-15639</link>
		<dc:creator>Belizean</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 05 May 2006 20:13:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2006/05/04/a-path-forward/#comment-15639</guid>
		<description>Maynard,

You're right.  It's really amazing that the party has lasted as long as it has.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Maynard,</p>
<p>You&#8217;re right.  It&#8217;s really amazing that the party has lasted as long as it has.</p>
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		<title>By: Maynard Handley</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2006/05/04/a-path-forward/#comment-15638</link>
		<dc:creator>Maynard Handley</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 05 May 2006 18:37:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2006/05/04/a-path-forward/#comment-15638</guid>
		<description>How accurate is the following model for physics in the US?

Once upon a time there was a thing called WW2. Physicists in the US allowed the US to win that (through, not least, radar and fission weapons) with pretty minor damage to the US. This was followed by the cold war during which physicists through fission weapons, spy satellites, detection systems and so on, helped the US govt do what it wanted. Now, and this is the crucial point, was there, at least implicitly, a quid pro quo understanding through all this time --- the physicists will give the US govt some of their time and skills, and the US govt will, in return, fund what these physicists want funded (which was essentially HEP)?

If this model is correct, one can imagine things having changed recently. In truth, no-one threatens the US even slightly, not like WW2/the Cold War. Osama is a fine Emmanuel Goldstein for GWB to drag out on public occasions, but even he doesn't regard terrorism as any sort of real threat (vide the endless stream of revelations we hear regarding malfeasance in this area, from refusing to kill known terrorists when it was possible because they were more useful as political rhetorical devices through the very idea and pointlessness of the Iraq war through the childish lack of planning at every stage of that war). In the absence of such a real threat, the US govt feels no need to have to keep the physics (and general science) establishment happy.
Perhaps once China is wealthier and gets some science based attention (the obvious candidate is their talk of a manned moon mission) this will change, but for now this seems to be the situation.

Comments?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>How accurate is the following model for physics in the US?</p>
<p>Once upon a time there was a thing called WW2. Physicists in the US allowed the US to win that (through, not least, radar and fission weapons) with pretty minor damage to the US. This was followed by the cold war during which physicists through fission weapons, spy satellites, detection systems and so on, helped the US govt do what it wanted. Now, and this is the crucial point, was there, at least implicitly, a quid pro quo understanding through all this time &#8212; the physicists will give the US govt some of their time and skills, and the US govt will, in return, fund what these physicists want funded (which was essentially HEP)?</p>
<p>If this model is correct, one can imagine things having changed recently. In truth, no-one threatens the US even slightly, not like WW2/the Cold War. Osama is a fine Emmanuel Goldstein for GWB to drag out on public occasions, but even he doesn&#8217;t regard terrorism as any sort of real threat (vide the endless stream of revelations we hear regarding malfeasance in this area, from refusing to kill known terrorists when it was possible because they were more useful as political rhetorical devices through the very idea and pointlessness of the Iraq war through the childish lack of planning at every stage of that war). In the absence of such a real threat, the US govt feels no need to have to keep the physics (and general science) establishment happy.<br />
Perhaps once China is wealthier and gets some science based attention (the obvious candidate is their talk of a manned moon mission) this will change, but for now this seems to be the situation.</p>
<p>Comments?</p>
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		<title>By: Alexey Petrov</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2006/05/04/a-path-forward/#comment-15637</link>
		<dc:creator>Alexey Petrov</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 05 May 2006 16:21:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2006/05/04/a-path-forward/#comment-15637</guid>
		<description>Re 16: "In particular, I was a strong supporter of BTeV. If the expriment had been well supported all along, it would have progressed faster and may had been taking data today."

Well, in light of the recent CDF results on Bs mixing it might be good that it wasn't built... but of course we didn't know that then. Yet, BTeV was a perfect experiment that was supposed to be Fermilab's flagship experiment from the point when the CDF/D0 are done to the point when the ILC is built. Now the situation in HEP looks more like if NASA were to scrap everything and redirect all their resources to mission to Saturn or something (in principle, the technology is there! :-)). What are the arguments (if any)  against building a linear-collider-type super-B factory (like the one that Europeans are proposing to build near Rome) at Fermilab as an intermediate step?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Re 16: &#8220;In particular, I was a strong supporter of BTeV. If the expriment had been well supported all along, it would have progressed faster and may had been taking data today.&#8221;</p>
<p>Well, in light of the recent CDF results on Bs mixing it might be good that it wasn&#8217;t built&#8230; but of course we didn&#8217;t know that then. Yet, BTeV was a perfect experiment that was supposed to be Fermilab&#8217;s flagship experiment from the point when the CDF/D0 are done to the point when the ILC is built. Now the situation in HEP looks more like if NASA were to scrap everything and redirect all their resources to mission to Saturn or something (in principle, the technology is there! :-)). What are the arguments (if any)  against building a linear-collider-type super-B factory (like the one that Europeans are proposing to build near Rome) at Fermilab as an intermediate step?</p>
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