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	<title>Comments on: Two Illuminating Interviews</title>
	<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2006/02/26/two-illuminating-interviews/</link>
	<description>Random samplings from a universe of ideas.</description>
	<pubDate>Mon, 01 Dec 2008 19:28:42 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>By: Kristin</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2006/02/26/two-illuminating-interviews/#comment-12669</link>
		<dc:creator>Kristin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 28 Feb 2006 22:51:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2006/02/26/two-illuminating-interviews/#comment-12669</guid>
		<description>There was also &lt;a href="http://www.nytimes.com/2005/09/04/magazine/04SCIENCE.html?pagewanted=1&#38;ei=5070&#38;en=cfea99d79aa278e7&#38;ex=1141275600" rel="nofollow"&gt;this article&lt;/a&gt; (free access!) in the New York Times magazine last September about this conflict. There's a lot in it about Marburger, who seems elusive to me. He's kind of like Chance the gardener from &lt;em&gt;Being There&lt;/em&gt;: surely he couldn't be as unbothered by the administration's disregard for scientific facts as what he's letting on. There's this quote in the article:

&lt;blockquote&gt;
To many in the scientific community, it is unfathomable that Marburger would risk his reputation by staying on and continuing to defend the administration. Others see the fact that he has remained in office as indicative of nothing more than the very real compromises involved in formulating science policy. ''If you haven't been there and lived in the White House, and thought deeply about your role and the ethical dilemmas you incur, such as whether or not to resign, then it might be quite difficult to understand what's happened with Marburger,'' says Neal Lane, Bill Clinton's second science adviser and a prominent supporter of the U.C.S. petition. Those who have worked closely with Marburger agree that his response is based on a careful cost-benefit analysis. ''The choice is between Jack and a Neanderthal,'' says one former Bush administration official, whose livelihood still depends on the federal government and thus spoke to me on the condition of anonymity. ''The scientific community will never understand that.''
&lt;/blockquote&gt;

This would seem to imply a hostility to science in the administration so great that one has to pick one's battles very carefully, lest the messenger be killed.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>There was also <a href="http://www.nytimes.com/2005/09/04/magazine/04SCIENCE.html?pagewanted=1&amp;ei=5070&amp;en=cfea99d79aa278e7&amp;ex=1141275600" rel="nofollow">this article</a> (free access!) in the New York Times magazine last September about this conflict. There&#8217;s a lot in it about Marburger, who seems elusive to me. He&#8217;s kind of like Chance the gardener from <em>Being There</em>: surely he couldn&#8217;t be as unbothered by the administration&#8217;s disregard for scientific facts as what he&#8217;s letting on. There&#8217;s this quote in the article:</p>
<blockquote><p>
To many in the scientific community, it is unfathomable that Marburger would risk his reputation by staying on and continuing to defend the administration. Others see the fact that he has remained in office as indicative of nothing more than the very real compromises involved in formulating science policy. &#8221;If you haven&#8217;t been there and lived in the White House, and thought deeply about your role and the ethical dilemmas you incur, such as whether or not to resign, then it might be quite difficult to understand what&#8217;s happened with Marburger,&#8221; says Neal Lane, Bill Clinton&#8217;s second science adviser and a prominent supporter of the U.C.S. petition. Those who have worked closely with Marburger agree that his response is based on a careful cost-benefit analysis. &#8221;The choice is between Jack and a Neanderthal,&#8221; says one former Bush administration official, whose livelihood still depends on the federal government and thus spoke to me on the condition of anonymity. &#8221;The scientific community will never understand that.&#8221;
</p></blockquote>
<p>This would seem to imply a hostility to science in the administration so great that one has to pick one&#8217;s battles very carefully, lest the messenger be killed.</p>
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		<title>By: spyder</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2006/02/26/two-illuminating-interviews/#comment-12668</link>
		<dc:creator>spyder</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 26 Feb 2006 22:58:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2006/02/26/two-illuminating-interviews/#comment-12668</guid>
		<description>Maybe Marburger didn't get the memo--wasn't that Deutsch's jog?--but this newstory surfaced today as yet another example of the administration hoping that industry paid for research trumps actual scientific findings:

http://www.insurancejournal.com/news/national/2006/02/26/65929.htm
the following is from a yahoo AP version of same report:

"But in the run-up to the decision, the journal Environmental Health reported that industry-commissioned scientists withheld data suggesting even small amounts of the known carcinogen, which is used in the steel, aerospace, electroplating and industries, can be deadly.

"We think we have an example in which all of the standard elements of scientific distortion are present: hiding behind the lawyers, statistical manipulation, failure to publish ... all that kind of stuff which comes right out of the tobacco industry playbook," said Dr. Peter Lurie, one of the report's authors.

Kate McMahon-Lohrer, an attorney at the firm Collier Shannon Scott and counsel for the industry group Chromium Coalition, vehemently disagreed with the Environmental Health report.

"That charge is absolutely and completely false and it's outrageous and libelous," she said.

In a telephone interview, McMahon-Lohrer acknowledged that hexavalent chromium raises workers' cancer risk at high doses, but said there was debate about the risk from low doses. She denied any industry-sponsored research was withheld from OSHA.

David Michaels, who heads the project on scientific knowledge and public policy at George Washington University and was a senior author of the report, said studies commissioned by a chromium industry group showed even low doses elevate cancer risk.

"Industry had commissioned a study which looked at newer facilities where exposures were much better-controlled and that study showed that workers with relatively low exposure to hexavalent chromium had greatly increased risk of lung cancer," Michaels said by telephone."</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Maybe Marburger didn&#8217;t get the memo&#8211;wasn&#8217;t that Deutsch&#8217;s jog?&#8211;but this newstory surfaced today as yet another example of the administration hoping that industry paid for research trumps actual scientific findings:</p>
<p><a href="http://www.insurancejournal.com/news/national/2006/02/26/65929.htm" rel="nofollow">http://www.insurancejournal.com/news/national/2006/02/26/65929.htm</a><br />
the following is from a yahoo AP version of same report:</p>
<p>&#8220;But in the run-up to the decision, the journal Environmental Health reported that industry-commissioned scientists withheld data suggesting even small amounts of the known carcinogen, which is used in the steel, aerospace, electroplating and industries, can be deadly.</p>
<p>&#8220;We think we have an example in which all of the standard elements of scientific distortion are present: hiding behind the lawyers, statistical manipulation, failure to publish &#8230; all that kind of stuff which comes right out of the tobacco industry playbook,&#8221; said Dr. Peter Lurie, one of the report&#8217;s authors.</p>
<p>Kate McMahon-Lohrer, an attorney at the firm Collier Shannon Scott and counsel for the industry group Chromium Coalition, vehemently disagreed with the Environmental Health report.</p>
<p>&#8220;That charge is absolutely and completely false and it&#8217;s outrageous and libelous,&#8221; she said.</p>
<p>In a telephone interview, McMahon-Lohrer acknowledged that hexavalent chromium raises workers&#8217; cancer risk at high doses, but said there was debate about the risk from low doses. She denied any industry-sponsored research was withheld from OSHA.</p>
<p>David Michaels, who heads the project on scientific knowledge and public policy at George Washington University and was a senior author of the report, said studies commissioned by a chromium industry group showed even low doses elevate cancer risk.</p>
<p>&#8220;Industry had commissioned a study which looked at newer facilities where exposures were much better-controlled and that study showed that workers with relatively low exposure to hexavalent chromium had greatly increased risk of lung cancer,&#8221; Michaels said by telephone.&#8221;</p>
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		<title>By: janet</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2006/02/26/two-illuminating-interviews/#comment-12667</link>
		<dc:creator>janet</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 26 Feb 2006 21:02:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2006/02/26/two-illuminating-interviews/#comment-12667</guid>
		<description>I thought some of Marburger's statements were really quite bizarre, especially what he had to say about global warming. Apparently he's missed the fact that the Bush administration has consistently denied and tried to suppress evidence of global warming.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I thought some of Marburger&#8217;s statements were really quite bizarre, especially what he had to say about global warming. Apparently he&#8217;s missed the fact that the Bush administration has consistently denied and tried to suppress evidence of global warming.</p>
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		<title>By: Amara</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2006/02/26/two-illuminating-interviews/#comment-12666</link>
		<dc:creator>Amara</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 26 Feb 2006 20:39:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2006/02/26/two-illuminating-interviews/#comment-12666</guid>
		<description>I don't think Archimedes was oblivious... and Marcus Claudius Marcellus was not oblivous to Archimedes' value either or he wouldn't have ordered that Archimedes be taken alive. Archimedes had reportedly invented the mechanical cranes which were used to overturn a number of Roman ships so that his Syracuse city could withstand the three-year Roman seige. When Syracuse was finally stormed, his math problem was probably figuring a new series of levers and pulleys...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I don&#8217;t think Archimedes was oblivious&#8230; and Marcus Claudius Marcellus was not oblivous to Archimedes&#8217; value either or he wouldn&#8217;t have ordered that Archimedes be taken alive. Archimedes had reportedly invented the mechanical cranes which were used to overturn a number of Roman ships so that his Syracuse city could withstand the three-year Roman seige. When Syracuse was finally stormed, his math problem was probably figuring a new series of levers and pulleys&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: Plato</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2006/02/26/two-illuminating-interviews/#comment-12662</link>
		<dc:creator>Plato</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 26 Feb 2006 19:41:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2006/02/26/two-illuminating-interviews/#comment-12662</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;Archimedes was killed by a Roman soldier when the city was taken. The traditional story is that the mathematician was unaware of the taking of the city. While he was drawing figures in the dust, a Roman soldier stepped on them and demanded he come with him. Archimedes responded, "Don't disturb my circles!" The soldier was so enraged that he pulled out his sword and slew the great geometer. When Archimedes was buried, they placed on his tombstone the figure of a sphere inscribed inside a cylinder and the 2:3 ratio of the volumes between them, the solution to the problem he considered his greatest achievement.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

I thought it good that I get a least one side of the conversation in context:)

From  a climate perspective this issue would tarnish other perspectives as well I am sure. There are no borders separating what is being viewed, when the outcome had been stalled to signing Kyoto, and a position upheld by scientists suporting this "illusion" of scientific origins.

That it was money motivated without doing the research to alternate energies, hurt the impression people might have of the governement?

So that had to be addressed.While the focused had been detailed in the circles I guess Archimedes did not see the danger? :)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>Archimedes was killed by a Roman soldier when the city was taken. The traditional story is that the mathematician was unaware of the taking of the city. While he was drawing figures in the dust, a Roman soldier stepped on them and demanded he come with him. Archimedes responded, &#8220;Don&#8217;t disturb my circles!&#8221; The soldier was so enraged that he pulled out his sword and slew the great geometer. When Archimedes was buried, they placed on his tombstone the figure of a sphere inscribed inside a cylinder and the 2:3 ratio of the volumes between them, the solution to the problem he considered his greatest achievement.</p></blockquote>
<p>I thought it good that I get a least one side of the conversation in context:)</p>
<p>From  a climate perspective this issue would tarnish other perspectives as well I am sure. There are no borders separating what is being viewed, when the outcome had been stalled to signing Kyoto, and a position upheld by scientists suporting this &#8220;illusion&#8221; of scientific origins.</p>
<p>That it was money motivated without doing the research to alternate energies, hurt the impression people might have of the governement?</p>
<p>So that had to be addressed.While the focused had been detailed in the circles I guess Archimedes did not see the danger? <img src='http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' /></p>
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		<title>By: Uncle Al</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2006/02/26/two-illuminating-interviews/#comment-12663</link>
		<dc:creator>Uncle Al</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 26 Feb 2006 19:17:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2006/02/26/two-illuminating-interviews/#comment-12663</guid>
		<description>The Carter Administration is generally acknowledged as having been the worst of the 20th century - incompetent domestic and foreign policies,  economic ruin, leadership by pablum.  &lt;em&gt;El Ultimo Presidente Boosh&lt;/em&gt; appears to have the corresponding 21st century slot all to himself with 94 years to go, and a good shot at being the most ruinous President in the history of the Republic.  Bush is impressive even given Herbert Hoover.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The Carter Administration is generally acknowledged as having been the worst of the 20th century - incompetent domestic and foreign policies,  economic ruin, leadership by pablum.  <em>El Ultimo Presidente Boosh</em> appears to have the corresponding 21st century slot all to himself with 94 years to go, and a good shot at being the most ruinous President in the history of the Republic.  Bush is impressive even given Herbert Hoover.</p>
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		<title>By: Clifford</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2006/02/26/two-illuminating-interviews/#comment-12664</link>
		<dc:creator>Clifford</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 26 Feb 2006 18:42:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2006/02/26/two-illuminating-interviews/#comment-12664</guid>
		<description>Sure.... but the quality of a debate affects the outcome. Quality includes for example, getting the facts right..... if those in your constituencies are in a position to assess the quality of those facts..... it forces you to do a better job of constructing your arguments more honestly, researching the facts, not being able to hide reports or dismiss them as irrelevant....

.....better debate...better outcome.

-cvj</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Sure&#8230;. but the quality of a debate affects the outcome. Quality includes for example, getting the facts right&#8230;.. if those in your constituencies are in a position to assess the quality of those facts&#8230;.. it forces you to do a better job of constructing your arguments more honestly, researching the facts, not being able to hide reports or dismiss them as irrelevant&#8230;.</p>
<p>&#8230;..better debate&#8230;better outcome.</p>
<p>-cvj</p>
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		<title>By: robert</title>
		<link>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2006/02/26/two-illuminating-interviews/#comment-12665</link>
		<dc:creator>robert</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 26 Feb 2006 18:37:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2006/02/26/two-illuminating-interviews/#comment-12665</guid>
		<description>Sad to say, it is the outcome of a debate that is of more consequence than its quality. Archimedes doubtless found this when debating the disturbance of his circles by an anonymous Roman soldier.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Sad to say, it is the outcome of a debate that is of more consequence than its quality. Archimedes doubtless found this when debating the disturbance of his circles by an anonymous Roman soldier.</p>
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