33 Comments on “I’m Not Sure What This Means”   rss feed

1. Jack on Oct 6th, 2005 at 12:21 am

   Daily *Trojan*??!!
   How boastful can you get!

2. the one Intelligently designed on Oct 6th, 2005 at 1:23 am

   Hi Clifford,
   Although I agree to most of what you said, but in my opinion there IS a point in mentioning the achievements of black string theorists. And the point is the issue of role model and stereo types. I can very well imagine that a college going black kid be discouraged by all the white faculty and all the white people in the text books to thinking physics might not be the kind of thing which his kind traditionaly do. I do think it will be good for a black kid to know that there are other blacks who are actualy acomplished people in the field.
   Let me tell you about my personal experience. I come from Pkaistan in particular punjab province. For me having to know that Salam from my province, who was educated untill masters was from very ordinary local institutions, could win a Noble Prize was a great moral boast, that no matter if you belong to third wolrd, there are still chances that you can excell in something as ellite as physics. (btw there is even a strong stereotype in all of indian subcontinent that punjabis are not very intelligent) Other than that there is a general feeling because of colonial past that every thing good and new , specialy in science, can only come from west.
   Well its true that infact its just human beings (who are gifted enough, work hard enough and get chances ect ect) who achieve things and they just happen to be of certain color or nationality, but still it can be a source of inspiration that the things can actualy be achieved in the face of odds, or where there are less examples in the past. So a good example does help. (there were a few other examples from other parts of subcontinent, but in case of Salam it was even better to know that even a muslim can do)
   btw I still hold the stereo type that russians make the best mathematicians, and americans (or anyone else) cant beat europeans in theoretical physics. (its just my way of paying tribute to the great masters).

3. Clifford on Oct 6th, 2005 at 1:33 am

   the one Intelligently designed: Thanks, but you’ve misunderstand my point, I think. I thought I made it clear that I also agree that the role model issue is an important one. But I repeat my key question, with my answer: “Should the next generations coming up be aspiring to be good scientists of colour, or good scientists? I’d hope the latter, and so we should try to highlight how well people are doing on that scale.”

   So what I’m questioning is the point of measuring my research output against other black people, as against other people in general. Let me go to the extreme. Let us go back to a recent time when no black people had any publications or citations in this field. Then you could argue that everybody black in that field was doing ok, since they were doing equally well in comparison to each other, no? So no further effort needed.

   -cvj

4. the one Intelligently designed on Oct 6th, 2005 at 1:44 am

   Hi clifford,
   I agree with you. Now I got your point that you dont want to be compared with only black scientists, but with scientists in general. And I totaly agree with you. Thats how it should be.

5. Sam Gralla on Oct 6th, 2005 at 3:17 am

   yes. Well-meaning attempts like this only serve to reinforce racial stereotypes. By comparing you to blacks only, it’s as if you couldn’t compete with whites. Just the message they want to send! It’s a sad and frustrating feature of the left’s current approach to the racial problem.

   But you can use this situation for good. I’d suggest submitting an op-ed to all the papers that featured you (and to more if they’ll take it), explaining your position. Since you’re a minority, the left might even deign to consider your position. (might)

   If you want any background on “USA’s cultural approach to black issues,” you can ask me, but I must warn you that I’m quite the reactionary.

   (just in case you haven’t matched the name, we had an email conversation about racial issues earlier in the summer)

   -Sam

   P.S. As an aside, I think it’s funny and sad in the usual combination that Princeton as opposed to Harvard or Yale or any other school of that esteem picked up on this to feature you. Princeton is where white students who love and want to help poor blacks but are too afriad to live in a city where they might actually run in to them tend to go. (okay, okay, so this one might be a bit unfair, but like all generalizations, there’s truth in there somewhere…)

6. antti rasinen on Oct 6th, 2005 at 3:37 am

   Cliffor, I agree with you 100%. To tell you the truth, I had no idea of your skin color before this post. This has not prevented me from enjoying your posts tremendously.

   So at least for me, you are not an interesting black science blogger, but an interesting science blogger (who happens to be of African descent =)

   I guess this goes to prove the old saying, “On the Internet no one knows you’re a dog”.

7. Plato on Oct 6th, 2005 at 6:26 am

   There is always this need for heroes in society Clifford and for some, you will be used like this.

   What makes it extremely nice is that you would remind us that these ideas of racial divide, would and could have an effect. How would you measure a “good man” if you had put something in the way like this. Based on his color of skin?

   No, I like to think you are a good man Clifford, regardless, even if there is a Jim Gates or a Ronald Mallet out there.:)

   So who are these people?

   Jim Gates-a supersymmetrist from superspace-All Republicans are supposed to be conservatives, and all Democrats are supposed to be liberals. At least that’s the stereotype. But, in fact, some Democrats are conservative. And some Republicans, are, well, moderate. So, you can break the stereotype also in the world of particles, and that’s the idea of supersymmetry. It’s purely hypothetical, but we sure hope it’s there, because it will be very interesting for the next millennium.

   http://superstringtheory.com/people/jgates.html

   and Ronald Mallet-hopes to produce the first piece of technology that eventually will allow him to build a time machine. It will be a device that employs lasers to actually twist space. He proposes to transport subatomic particles through time, using a circle of laser beams.

   http://www.foundation.uconn.edu/meet_some_faculty.htm

8. KenL on Oct 6th, 2005 at 8:25 am

   In light of Sean’s posting about Lisa Randall, two posts after yours, I’d point out that Clifford is also very easy on the eyes.

9. kmeson on Oct 6th, 2005 at 8:59 am

   antti -
   Interestingly, until this post I thought clifford was a big red dog! Never the less: clifford, kudos to you despite your humanity.

   Cheers,

10. Clifford on Oct 6th, 2005 at 9:02 am

    Antii, KenL, kmeson:

    Thanks. You’re too easily fooled by uploaded photos. Dogs and Cats can upload photos just as easily as they can type, you know.

    [meow]

    -cvj

11. Mugizi Rwebangira on Oct 6th, 2005 at 9:24 am

    First: Congrats! Seriously.

    Secondly: While your reservations are duly noted, I think there is relatively little harm from such forms of recognition. Perhaps you might compare it say to the French honoring the “French particle physicist of the year.” Surely they already do this in some fashion and I can’t imagine it has any deletrious effect.

    Those who take interest in such matters may do so, and those who consider them irrelevant may continue to ignore them.

    On the positive side, the issue of role models has already been mentioned. This research was published in a forum for people who might be particularly interested in the progress of people in a similar situation to themselves. Admittedly, it would be more informative if a comparison was given to the entire population, but I think the probable interests of the target audience was satisfied by highlighting some succesful folks.

    So in conclusion (1) It seems fairly harmless (2) At least some people might be positively motivated by this sort of thing.

12. Diya on Oct 6th, 2005 at 10:31 am

    OK, I mentioned your blog, and even quoted from it. In fact the entire thing was much longer.
    The story just above it was a piece on how black enrollment at USC was down to only 6 percent. I’m pretty sure the editors were trying to fit these two pieces together subject-wise. As a result, they shortened and replaced a lot.
    Anyway, I really enjoyed interviewing you.

13. Clifford on Oct 6th, 2005 at 10:49 am

    Hi Diya. Yes…I’m pretty sure you did a great job, from your questions and followup questions. I understand that there are editors….

    And thanks again…I had a great time!

    Cheers,

    -cvj

14. kmeson on Oct 6th, 2005 at 11:05 am

    A cat ? …. Oh I see it now. I hadn’t looked closely at the scratchings on the white board.

15. citrine on Oct 6th, 2005 at 12:38 pm

    One of the things I love about Physics and Math is the mantle (or aura? - can’t think of a better word right now) of objectivity re. demographics of its practitioners, that surrounds these fields. Yes, I know about the various mathematical traditions ascribed to, say, the French or the Russians but someone of Chinese or Nigerian descent could also successfully take up these approaches.

    A theorem or an experimental result could (in theory :))be presented and critiqued w/o any allusion to the originator’s demographics. (I presume that this is not the case in disciplines such as Sociology.) It would be nice if we could all hide behind cartoon Disney characters and discuss Physics/Math (or anything else) over the internet. But unfortunately at some point the human beings involved have to come out of their hidey holes and interact with their audience in person. This is when human biases enter into the equations.

    Is it a “good thing” to deliberately refer to a scientist’s demographics? I would suggest that it is unneccesary in written communication UNLESS the context is biographical. Often a name and/or photo points to one’s demographic traits so why belabour the point? Also, with the global mixing we see now, it could often result in useless or misleading connotations, as in the case of Clifford who grew up outside the USA. As much as possible, let people judge your work w/o judging YOU in the process.

    As far as being role models for kids, let them see the diversity in science (and in the world in general!) as a matter of course w/o someone consciously pointing out demographic traits. Hopefully they will grow up less conflicted about this whole issue if presented bereft of the unease it currently evokes.

16. janet on Oct 6th, 2005 at 12:43 pm

    It’s useful to note that not all that long ago, a prominent scientist being Jewish was remarkable; nowadays, Jewish scientists are a dime a dozen, and if you ask the average person-on-the-street to name five famous physicists, probably at least two (starting with Einstein, of course) will be Jewish. This is something that changed within a couple of generations. Let’s hope we can say the same about black scientists in the near future.

17. janet on Oct 6th, 2005 at 1:32 pm

    Oh yeah, being ordinary-looking doesn’t keep a woman’s looks from being remarked, it just means not often being told you’re beautiful. And for having your looks constantly commented on, nothing beats being pregnant.

18. janet on Oct 6th, 2005 at 1:33 pm

    Darn, I posted the above in the wrong thread. Please disregard.

19. Nicholas on Oct 6th, 2005 at 10:03 pm

    ” I do not want to be considered a successful Scientist of African Descent. I want to be considered a successful Scientist (by any commonly agreed measure) who happens to be of African Descent.”

    I completely agree with the above remarks, and I think it was an excellent post.

    That having been said–65 citations is fantastic for anyone, and I am really quite confident saying that you are not being cited as such because you are African American, but because you are an extremely talented theoretical physicist.

    Cheers,

    NM

20. Frank on Oct 7th, 2005 at 4:38 am

    Nothing to add to this important discussion about race and science, so I’ll just be shallow: IMHO, Clifford, you’re just as hot, if not hotter than, Halle Berry. (But, then, women ain’t really my thing. *LOL*)

21. Clifford on Oct 7th, 2005 at 8:41 am

    Thanks Frank!! -cvj

22. andrew on Oct 8th, 2005 at 9:51 am

    “yes. Well-meaning attempts like this only serve to reinforce racial stereotypes. By comparing you to blacks only, it’s as if you couldn’t compete with whites. Just the message they want to send! It’s a sad and frustrating feature of the left’s current approach to the racial problem.”

    While I agree these “mathematicians of african descent” articles do seem a little condescending, I don’t think the Journal of Blacks in Higher Education is attempting to be condescending to people of African descent. It’s list of Black Mathematicians is there becuase the JBHE assists African-Americans in entering Academia. Why their tracking Clifford I don’t understand becuase he’s not African-American, but the point of the institute is to keep track of the number of African-Americans in Academia and to do something about it. The JBHE is almost exactly like the Irish and Jewish institutes for higher learning that popped up hundreds of years ago in the U.S. to assist then minority and concieved of as “outsider” groups into academia etc.I don’t think tracking by race is the problem, I think perceiving by race is the problem. The JBHE also publishes the race relations reporter which if your looking for a genuine scare is worth a read sometime.

    [cvj replaced extract with a link to same.]

23. andrew on Oct 8th, 2005 at 9:57 am

    BTW the last news item I posted is from the race relations reporter and I’m sorry if it offends anyone on this blog.

    peace,
    a

24. Clifford on Oct 8th, 2005 at 10:04 am

    andrew. thanks.

    three things:

    (1) I don’t have a problem with the existence and aims of the JBHE. I just think that they are missing out on doing the best job they can if they do not compare the academics they are studying to their peers in comparable fields, regardless of race. You need to track all aspects of progress, but remember to put it correctly in context….

    You said: “I don’t think tracking by race is the problem, I think perceiving by race is the problem.” Yes: This is precisely my point!

    (2) I am not African American, but I am black. The journal is JBHE, not JAAHE. And I live and work in America. So it is appropriate to track me.

    (3) I replaced your extract with a link to the reporter’s page with the same material.

    Cheers,

    -cvj

25. andrew on Oct 8th, 2005 at 11:22 am

    Clifford, I don’t think I was argueing with your points as much as with the poster of the comment:

    “yes. Well-meaning attempts like this only serve to reinforce racial stereotypes. By comparing you to blacks only, it’s as if you couldn’t compete with whites. Just the message they want to send! It’s a sad and frustrating feature of the left’s current approach to the racial problem.”

    but appreciate the feedback. Perhaps you should ask the LBHE to compare the acheivements of African-Americans to researchers outside of their race. They might be open to the idea. A new category in their studies =)

    peace,
    A

26. Clifford on Oct 8th, 2005 at 11:37 am

    andrew: Thanks. Perhaps. But, there’s not enough hours in the day to do all I want to do…fight all the battles I want to fight…sing all the songs I want to sing, etc.

    Maybe someone will just send them the link to this very blog post to which this comment thread belongs.

    Cheers,

    -cvj

27. andrew on Oct 9th, 2005 at 2:38 am

    got it.
    e-mailing it in a second.

    peace,
    A

28. Clifford on Oct 9th, 2005 at 9:09 am

    gosh! i did not mean anyone in particular…. but thanks….Let us hope they “get it”.

    -cvj

29. rcriii on Oct 11th, 2005 at 3:50 pm

    Congrats for the well-deserved honor, But how does this level of citation compare to all other Physicists? Don’t leave us hanging that way.

30. Clifford on Oct 11th, 2005 at 4:02 pm

    rcriii - Thanks. I’ve no idea, frankly. I also don’t know what they were counting. Paper alone? Citations to the book too?

    -cvj

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